Thomas, Don't spout labout half truths at me. In a couple of weeks time I have an appointment to see a specialist consultant. It will cost me £400. I am doing this because it will take over 12 months to see a specialist on the NHS. My GP said it was poiintless to try to see one any earlier. I also have to see an osteopath and physio therapist intermittently because of injuries -at £35 per session. If I attempt to see them on NHS, again there is a 12 month+ wait list, during which time I would seize up.. The physiotherapist I see treats staff of the Greater Manchester Ambulance Service, because GMAS apparently find it more cost-effective to use private physios than wait for it on NHS. I assume you have the wit to see the irony of that. Just because the service functions better than it did under the disgraceful tories does NOT mean that it functions well. The correct way to measure it is to compare it to that received by our immediate neighbours in Europe. In comparison to them, it is utter crap. Labour has now been in power 8 years, and comparisons with a Tory administratrion are no longer valid. 8 years is long enough to get it right. Parts function very well, but overall it is not up to scratch, and it is riddled with wholesale hidden examples of poor services. People like me can afford to buy ourselves out of the problems, and I do so. Private physios, private dentist, private consultants. The majority of the population have no such luxury and deserve better than they get. The only reason that you and your fellow-travellers can con them into thinking the service is better is because those poor sods have no means of comparing it with the private sector or with how the equivalent services function in other countries in Western Europe. In fairness to you, you too are probably being conned by your party. I am not. When you do that, your comments are of no value because they are not your thoughts. When I get angry with you and Alan, it is because almost all the ripostes you have to arguments by others is rehashing labour party soundbites. That is why I tell you to grow up. I'm sorry if you find that rude - it is not the intention even if that is the effect - but they do not represent thought-through opinions. The problem you and alan have with myself and Dave is that we are not lib dem party members (I assume Dave is not - forgive me if I am wrong). We are people who would normally have voted labour and have walked away having seen how Labour has betrayed its principles, notably over Iraq. So you cannot hope to preach superiority of Labour principles to us, because we already KNOW that, and we know that thouse principles have been betrayed wholesale in a cavailier, mendacious manner . Believe me, it took a lot of souls searching on my part to walk away from Labour. I'm from a coal mining village, and from that genration which owes its ability to get an education and decent health service to what Labour did for us after world war two and into the 50s and 60s, and it breaks my heart to have sit here and disown them.

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