Posted by Chris Paul on Sunday Dec 31, 15:31
John Leech asked me in a recent email exchange whether there was *anything* he ever did that I approved of. I thought I'd found something I could offer up recently when John stood alongside Willie Rennie MP and asked a good question about "dumb" Cluster Bombs. But all hopes of a warm positive feeling about the MP who would like my vote after the boundary changes (unless there is a snap election as Menzies Campbell is predicting) during the season of goodwill vanished when I discovered Rennie's gross hypocrisy as he works for a firm that lobbies FOR cluster bomb makers Raytheon.
I've covered this in more detail with links on my blog chrispaul-labouroflove.blogspot.com.
+ tags coming soon
( 90 Comments )
Alan
Tuesday Jan 02, 14:06
Chris, your article is very interesting but I take exception to your statement that British troops are poorly trained. This is not the case; British troops are the best trained troops in the world; they undertake some of the most physically and mentally demanding military training there is to offer. However, what people fail to realise is that they are still only human and all humans make mistakes, no matter how intelligent, well trained or physically fit. In this instance it would seem that a soldier made a mistake and I think that its pretty bad taste to assume from this that our armed forces are badly equipped. Furthermore, your comments in relation to them not being properly equipped may be slightly off tack. There is alot of talk in the media in relation to this but having just seen my brother off to Iraq (very highly trained and competent I might add) the amount of kit he had been given was enormous, all new, all up to date and all relevant and effective within the environment to which he is going.
In relation to your comments about the Lib Dems I think it is just another example of Lib Dem stupidity and incompetence. Imagine being stupid enough to openly campaign for a ban on cluster bombs while at the same time being associated with a company that is lobbying for them!!! No suprise JL has jumped on the bandwagon, blissfully unaware of any consequences.... he's got plenty of practice in that area!
Alan
Tuesday Jan 02, 14:08
"I think that its pretty bad taste to assume from this that our armed forces are badly equipped"
I meant to say 'badly trained'
peter h
Tuesday Jan 02, 17:03
so youre saying that john's goos question about cluster bombs is no longer good because of this bloke Rennie?
What kind of twisted logic is that?
I hate to agree with Alan (again. twice in one week), but British troops are exceptionally well trained, compared to the gung ho shoot-'em-up american approach. It's just a pity Blair sent them into such a thankless hole.
Alan
Thursday Jan 04, 08:03
http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/articlenews.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2007-01-04T074147Z_01_L04644577_RTRUKOC_0_UK-BRITAIN-ARMY-HOUSING.xml&WTmodLoc=Top+News-C1-Headline-6
It would seem it's not just you Chris that thinks our armed forces are underfunded!! It's interesting how all the Generals.. clearly old Tories are coming out in force now Blair has declared he will step down this year!! Pathetic!
sedgelypark
Thursday Jan 04, 22:28
Chris, you make a good point here as it proves one of two things about Leech. He is either naive or incredibly cynical.
Or worse still a terrible combiantion of both.
It is also sad that a man with two jobs has time to have na email exchange with a well known Labour activist. He sounds little underemployed to me.
Rather than unemployed which he will be in a few short months.
Alan
Friday Jan 05, 08:43
I think that if an MP does have an email exchange with constituents then that is a good thing.
Chris Paul
Friday Jan 05, 10:01
http://chrispaul-labouroflove.blogspot.com
Thanks for your comments. I believe there are training issues and equipment issues with the British Army. But the main issue is the deployment. Yesterday we had Lord Garden spouting on the Guardian letters' page about Iraq ... but this Lib Dem defence spokesman only opposed the war at the time BECAUSE HE SAID WE SHOULD HAVE ATTACKED OTHER COUNTRIES (IRAN AND SYRIA) FIRST!!!!
In this case the Sgt was underequipped as it turned out but not particularly obviously the case at the time as he was facing stone throwers in a tank. His colleague was arguably OVER-equipped with a machine gun he was not competent with. And there is a question too over who this man was TRYING to shoot and what would have happened if he had killed say five Iraqis instead of his sergeant?
But all this is by the by. Willie Rennie MP was first outed as an account director of this PR firm by The Daily Record at the start of June 2006. By then he had already visited his firm's client Raytheon in his MP rather than PR capacity. Menzies Campbell has now had seven months to reshuffle ooor Willie but hasn't been bothered. He had a limited reshuffle of his deck of cards (with more than two jokers) in December but didn't deal with this hypocrisy. He must - like Leech - think this is fine. Raytheon remain the FOURTH LARGEST arms manufacturer in the world and a major supplier of cluster bomnbs. Rennie still has the PR firm on his CV and they have him in their own PR. Rennie hasn't bothered to distance himself from his firm's client and local employer in any shape or form.
Willie has asked three written questions, one PMQ, and backed one EDM on the subject. For the last written question John Leech joined Wille with a verbatim copy of WR's question. Leech must surely have known about Rennie's hypocrisy as a PR man and factory visitor at Raytheon Scotland Limited?
Leech has led his miserable South Manchester Reporter columnthis week with his opposition to Cluster Bombs. All very well. But Rennie's involvement is an embarrassment and Leech should leave well alone and certainly not take questions off this dipstick. This seems to show his lack of discrimination which has been a case with his EDMs too. Fortunately there are no arms factories in South Manchester or we would have very likely seen Leech visiting and congratulating them.
On the subject of Leech dealing with my email ... he rarely if ever deals with substantive issues. Usually there is mild abuse and self justification on other matters (e.g. Christie hoax) but not answers to those substantive questions.
Chris Paul
Friday Jan 05, 11:49
Just a small correction. Raytheon are (probably) now the FIFTH largest arms makers not the fourth. Both rankings can be found on current web pages so probably best to take the lower one. They built the bombs dropped on an Iraqi market in 2003 killing at least 62 innocent people. Source Watch http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Raytheon states that they are accused of being a "virtually indistinguihable" entity from the CIA. Willie Rennie was still listed as a PRINCIPAL (not mind a principle!) and SHAREHOLDER on the last web impresson I can find for McEwan Purvis. Their site has been down for the last few weeks with a holding page feebly excusing their poor public profile http://www.mcewan-purvis.co.uk/. The Purvis of the title however is no longer with them having resigned from this arms spinner when he was elected for the Lib Dems to Holyrood in 2003. Around the time of that Baghdad bomb as it happens. Though I don't think this was remarked at the time.
Val
Friday Jan 05, 13:25
Did'nt the Labour Council welcome "European Microwave & Radio Frequency week" to GMEX the week before their September conference?
If you look past the innocuous title, this is an industry making and selling arms, and it had its annual jamboree right here in Manchester!
So much for Manchester Labour's commitment to peace.
Alan
Friday Jan 05, 16:25
I think it's difficult to comment intelligently about how people react in a war situation. Ok so they were throwing stones but after stones comes petrol bombs, hidden personal weapons and greandes... all of which will have been in the mind of that 'untrained' soldier as he and his Sgt were dealing with the incident! these guys get mortared daily, snipers shoot at them if they go near their wire perimeter fence and thats all while they are on base never mind the rapid deployment units that have to go out of the base. As I said all people make mistakes, it's human nature!
And Val, for God's sake, what are you implying, we should hate all companies that make weapons systems. Theres peace and then there is stupidity. Whats next, abolishing our armed forces??
peter h
Saturday Jan 06, 20:22
who actually DROPPED the bombs which killed the innocent iraqis in 2003 Chris? Supported by whom?
Chris Paul
Sunday Jan 07, 01:37
Hi Peter H
Americans dropped the bombs. Supported in general terms by the British government perhaps. But not in their particular tactics which must have even shocked and awed our chiefs of staff. But, immediately after the war started, the Lib Dems did join in and supported 'our boys'. In that they were equal to other MPs.
Their defence guru Lord Garden opposed the war because he thought Britain should have attacked other places - Iran, Syria, N Korea - first.
But our Labour Council didn't support the war, Labour MPs Bradley, Lloyd and Stringer and 136 other LP MPs voted against, and Manchester Labour has been pretty solid in supporting anti war activity and in wishing for an end to the occupation.
Local Lib Dems have however generally been lightweights in supporting practical antiwar activity.
But 'Val' has a point on the conference mentioned. But this was not a case of deliberate welcoming of arms people. A conference headlined 'Microwave' booked here and no-one, including CAAT/StWC realised or commented until the last few hours that this included weapons applications. In contrast Willie Rennie (Lib dem) has a weapons factory from the 5th largest arms makers in the world in his backyard, was a PR for them or worked for the firm who were, and is somehow pretending he is now anti- the stuff they make. John Leech has fallen in behind him, many months after this gross hypocrisy was publicised.
I think that is very unfortunate. Why is Leech doing this anyway? He is not a defence spokesman. He is surely not the twister Willie's best mate? Why is he joining the hypocrite's crusade?
peter h
Sunday Jan 07, 15:47
I appreciate your points Chris. But until Labour at the top has a public change of heart about Iraq, I'm afraid that your party is stuck with it, and it's costing you dearly. Collective responsibility and all that. And you can really pin anything on John Leech on this one. When people vote labour, they don't expect to find their representatives being cheerleaders for neofascist Neocons, and that's what's happened. Labour's been hijacked.
peter h
Sunday Jan 07, 22:50
I'm sure you hate iraq as much as I do, but it will cost you the next election, and you stand no chance of winning the Withington seat back off john until Iraq is dead and buried. There's too many people have turned their back on labour nationally for that specific reason. In electoral terms it doesnt matter that manchester council is opposed. Manchester council doesnt run the country. And Iraq will get worse. It always was an artificial entity cobbled together by Western interests and it's likely to split into its component parts or hack itself to death trying , with Britain and USA impotent to do anything about it and not knowing how to get their troops out without looking like theyre cutting and running. A complete shambles.
sedgelypark
Sunday Jan 07, 23:02
Val, I'm afraid your contribution to this debate is woeful and typically Fib Dem.
How exactly did our Labour Council welcome the microwave conference? Was there a delegation of Labour councillors outside GMEX doing a meet and greet? No, so they were hardly welcoming them.
Should Labour have banned the conference on moral grounds? Sure.
But GMEX`is a business that takes bookings from wide range of companies - some good, some bad.
The fac eis the microwave peopel aren't doing anythin gillegal (immoral yes) so cancellign their booking could have resulted in legal action.
As Chris points out no-one twigged they are were arms people but it's hardly Labour laying out the red carpet as your Fib dem take on it implies.
Peter, sometines you fail to address the issue when it doesn't suit you. Chris rightly points out that virtually everyone in Manc Labour opposes the war. We`are a democratic party and we allow dissent and we choose to express it and you can by voting for MPs like messers lloyd or Keith Bradley - before he went - who opposed the war.
Plus what is your asnwer to the Fib Dems opposing the war on one hand and then voting to send more of our boys when they realised it could them cost votes by being seen as not supprting our armed forces. Typically Fibs facing both ways at the same time.
Bob
Monday Jan 08, 10:53
This forum is not about Iraq , it's about John Leech. John Leech is a liar who used cancer patients as political footballs to get elected. His position on Iraq or anything else is irrelevant. He is a Lib Dem, his position will be whatever is most expedient at the moment. The key issue of this forum is his performance. He was elected on a lie and he has continued to lie, repeating the Christie disgrace as well as whoppers about the Southern Cemetery "closing". Cancer patients, the recently bereaved, they are all grist to his political mill. His colleagues in Parliament think he's a joke, his colleagues in Manchester are actively plotting against him and the electorate will sus him for the lightweight that he is. I am keenly awaiting his condemnation of Ruth Kelly for sending her child to a private school. I suggest that for reasons which are obvious I might be waiting a long time.
Bob
Monday Jan 08, 10:53
This forum is not about Iraq , it's about John Leech. John Leech is a liar who used cancer patients as political footballs to get elected. His position on Iraq or anything else is irrelevant. He is a Lib Dem, his position will be whatever is most expedient at the moment. The key issue of this forum is his performance. He was elected on a lie and he has continued to lie, repeating the Christie disgrace as well as whoppers about the Southern Cemetery "closing". Cancer patients, the recently bereaved, they are all grist to his political mill. His colleagues in Parliament think he's a joke, his colleagues in Manchester are actively plotting against him and the electorate will sus him for the lightweight that he is. I am keenly awaiting his condemnation of Ruth Kelly for sending her child to a private school. I suggest that for reasons which are obvious I might be waiting a long time.
John Holliker
Monday Jan 08, 13:55
Let's have a bit of rationale here. Leechy didn't get elected on the Christie lie alone and I, for one, would rather hear Ruth Kelly's reasoning for her son's education above anyone elses.
And great work Chris on exposing the Rennie'Leech hypocrisy on arms...only Labour's recent failure to order an inquiry into the BAE/Saudi deal is truly and utterly appalling.
(That's the latest in a long line that reek of corruption but don't merit investigation as they are *not in the public interest*)
Yes the Lib dems are a bunch of charlatans but Labour is hardly covered in glory at the moment.
Chris Paul
Monday Jan 08, 17:08
Actually, John Holliker, Labour DID order an enquiry into the BAe/Saudi Arms deal. That was under legislation that Labour themselves introduced, in 2001 I think. The whole thing is a mess of course. "Commissions" and huge ones at that are the stuff of the arms trade. There is now a similar inquiry re South Africa and BAe I think. This, and lots of other things, are contrived at best and corrupt at worst. That doesn't mean the SFO should spend limitless amounts of time and money investigating when/if they cannot/will not get a result. Labour and the Tories have had to deal with this terrible tension around arms industry, commissions, morality, bungs, employment etc etc for many years. The Lib(Dem)s haven't since 1914. Willie Rennie however has taken on a defence job, is shooting his mouth off on defence matters, including cluster bombs, andhe is also apparently still a director and shareholder of a PR and lobbying company that takes money from the arms industry to fluff up their image and get them political support. This has been known for at least six months. Leech shouldn't have stood with him on cluster bombs however useful or not the Lib Dem motion was/is. Typical very bad judgement. There's a pattern.
Christie was not the only factor in Leech's win. There were other fibs and distortions too. But his campaigning was very very sharp indeed. But please don't tell me that less than 750 people were not influenced by this disgraceful campaign? Probably the thousands of old Tories who finally made the switch were influenced for starters. What a strange coalition they had! The swing was three times the national figure and more than other Guardian and student areas. The Christie Hoax was probably a significant part of that difference.
peter h
Monday Jan 08, 22:20
just as an aside, the BAE thing is quite simple really. If you want to do business in that part of the world, then what you call bribes and they call commissions are the norm. It's how business works out there. No commission, no work.
sedgelypark
Monday Jan 08, 22:21
Bob is right to point our issues with Leech can't be covered up with glib references to Iraq.
It's about whether he's fit to be an MP based on his lies to cancer sufferers and their families during his election campaign and his appalling record since.
In short, he is a joke and a lame duck.
Now, Chris is right to pint his Christies lies had an impact.
A friend of mine is very apolitical but she had a visit from a Fib campaigner who told her on the doorstep on election day that Labour were going to close Christies which was round the corner from her. She fell for it and instead of not voting she voted for Leech so there's one vote. I suspect she wasn't alone.
Also, Chris is right to point out the Fibs always target the Tories..their Hocus Focus leaflets always saw the 'Tories can't win here' as the Fibs are Tories who won't admit to it.
Although I have noticed the Fibs are now targeting the Greens in our ward.
They really are shameless.
peter h
Monday Jan 08, 22:26
why don't any of you guys accept that part of john leech's appeal was that he was a good hard-working and very popular councillor who built himself a strong personal following by sheer hard work at grass roots level?
Because he did exactly that, whether you like his politics or not.
OUtside of labour party portals, he's a popular guy on the ground. Maybe you could learn from that?
You all think KB was such a wonderful guy, yet you'd have been hard pressed to find a good word said for him round here. He was viewed as remote and ineffectual, rightly or wrongly.
sedgelypark
Monday Jan 08, 23:31
Peter, you can't explain Leech's massive swing on him pounding the streets in his ward.
It was about more than that and i accept you're right about KB. He realised the threat far too late and didn't counter hard enough but nonetheless the Christies lies deffo took Leech down to Westminster.
But the idea that Leech won cos he solved the dogshit problem in Didsbury is naive.
Sorry I meant Labour solved the dogshit problem and then Leech took the credit on his Hocus Focus leaflet. (tongue a little bit in cheek.)
Plus there is a massive difference between being a hard working councillor and being an MP. Leech is living proof of that.
It is easy to see MPS as being remote as they are in London a lot of time.
Except Leech who misses vital votes and debates cos he's sat in the Town Hall.
It really is pathetic.
John Holliker
Tuesday Jan 09, 09:04
Christie lies..dog sh*t...Hocus Focus..gosh, we're really raising the bar here. My memory of the 2005 General Election was that lies and fibs aside, the Lib Dems were simply hungrier and had more troops on the streets...no matter how much some Labour activists may want to rewrite history and pin the defeat on a single issue.
Leech delivered 11+ leaflets in a 4 week period...how many did Labour manage?
Jeff
Tuesday Jan 09, 10:29
11 leaflets in 4 weeks!! Someone should take a look at his election expenses!!
Alan
Tuesday Jan 09, 10:31
Labour managed within the agreed budget John. They produced newsletters and leaflets that related to real issues. Not made up ones. Take this as an example, you are presented with two seperate newspapers to choose from; the headlines on one is "Aliens Land in Manchester" and the other headline is "Economy booming". Which one do you choose, the real issues or the complete bollocks!
Greg
Tuesday Jan 09, 10:35
John Leech lied about Christies. It might not have won him the election. It might not be the biggest issue in the world. It might not be the thing the voters care about most. All that might be true (though I don't personally think it is). The truth is that by consent amongst a wide group of people (not all of them Labour party members or even supporters) John Leech told a blatant lie in order to secure electoral advantage. it does'nt matter how popular or unpopular he is, or how hard he works or not.The harsh fact is we have an MP who is not just a liar (not the first or the last probably) but an MP who is an MP because he is a liar.
John Holliker
Tuesday Jan 09, 12:28
Alan - totally agree...but from a perception point of view, who looks the busier/who had the momentum/who had infinitely more people prepared to work for them in Withington at the last Gen Elec? Labour or Lib Dems?
Leech is culpable on so many issues but it would do Greg/Sedgley Park to remember this before descending on their predictable 'I hate Leech' rants. That alone ain't going to be enough at the next poll. And such tactics would hit Labour more than the Lib Dems.
Greg
Tuesday Jan 09, 12:37
I don't hate Leech by the way. I hate the fact that he used the Christie Hoax to play on the fears of cancers sufferers and to manipulate the concerns of ordinary voters who believed his lies becasue they presumably didn't think that anyone would stoop so low as to imply that a world famous cancer facility was going to close when they knew that it wasn't simply to gain short term political advantage. You Lib Dems can avoid, hide, muddy, confuse, ignore ..do whatever you like but you can't run away from the consequence of your fella being so low as to do what he did. You should be ashamed, he should be ashamed and he should apologise.
And if you think it was a one off ask him if Southern Cemetery was ever really in danger of closing or whether he was just cynically using the fears of bereaved families. He is a disgrace and that is why they are plotting behind is back. If you don't believe me look at what happened when the Lib Dems walked out of the Council Chamber. He sat there on his own, totally isoltaed. He committed politcal suicide that day and some of his so-called Lib dem colleagues in manchester vowed to oust him. I'm sure there are others who are better informed than me but if I was John leech would keep my eye on Cllr Mark Ramsbottom.
John Holliker
Tuesday Jan 09, 12:51
Greg
Please stop frothing at the mouth. I'm a Labour Party member. Read my last post. You totally ignore the saliant points. Are you Peter H in disguise?
Dan
Tuesday Jan 09, 14:05
If you were an active labour party member then you would understand that the reason why the Libs had more people " on the ground" in Withington at the GE is that Leech treated like a by election and we concentrated our resources on target seats of which withington was never one.
John Holliker
Tuesday Jan 09, 16:20
Dan, there's truth to that but I wish certian people would not obsess on the Christie lies when Labour's complacency/inactivity was such a telling factor. A little objectivity goes a long way. It's easy to attack to the point of obsession (Christies) to excuse/hide failings.
Alan
Tuesday Jan 09, 17:05
John, your like a reasoned Peter H!!
peter h
Tuesday Jan 09, 20:30
at last! somebody on the labour benches being intellectually honest enough to recognize why they lost instead of frothing at the mouth about the Christies side issue. I hate to say it, but if you want to win the seat back, then listen to john holliker.
peter h
Tuesday Jan 09, 20:36
forget christies. It's a dead issue with the electorate. It doesnt matter to them. move on, for christ's sake, or not only will you lose the next election you'll lose your deposits too.
Dave
Tuesday Jan 09, 20:52
This forum and all the threads on it can be summed as this:
Labour supports moan about JL and regardless of the orginal moan, it ends up after a few postings to focus on the whole Christies issue (which for me, Peter, et al, was not a significant factor when we turned away from being a Labour supporter, to voting for the only bugger about, who had a chance of kicking Labour out of South Manchster, it wasn't a personal attack of KB, just a protest at what Labour had become under Blair) which in turn leads us to every JL voter turns the debate into the lies over Iraq and the excuse to turn a bad situation into some far worse!
sedgelypark
Tuesday Jan 09, 23:23
Peter, you can be assured of two things:
- the Christies issue will resonate with the viters. They can see how utterly cynical that tactic was.
- KB's inertia won't be repeated and Leech will find himself under the sort of assault unleashed in Hartlepool when the Fibs wilted when they got a taste of their own medicine.
For the record i don't hate JL. I actually find him rather sad and am almost sorry for him as he is so far out of his depth.
However, I do hate the lies the Fibs tell to get elected. All politics is cynical but they it take to new depths. Exploiting cancer patients and the dead is really the lowest of the low.
Bob
Wednesday Jan 10, 09:48
John Leech lied about Christies. He is an MP because he lied. It is a matter of principle. By the way John Holliker, is that your real name and where are you a Labour Party member? Where you involved in the GE camapign in Withington. Just interested to know what your experience of that was.
Bob
Wednesday Jan 10, 09:48
John Leech lied about Christies. He is an MP because he lied. It is a matter of principle. By the way John Holliker, is that your real name and where are you a Labour Party member? Where you involved in the GE camapign in Withington. Just interested to know what your experience of that was.
John Holliker
Wednesday Jan 10, 11:48
Sedgley Park - the start of your last message is this reflective of Labour's local mindset? I sure hope not as it's both baseless and subjective drivel. Labour will get the Withington seat back if they can campaign effectively as a collective and LISTEN to the voters (but admittedly not Peter H and co on this board). From what I've heard, Labour's 2005 experience in Withington came down to them not having enough bodies. Too many 'activists' were inactive because of national, international and the Metrolink failure, others appeared simply complacent and only turned out in the last few days. Fact.
My sister lives near The Southern and remembers getting one Labour leftlet as opposed to a flood from Leech. I have friends in Withington who tell a similar story.
So may I suggest your introspection starts with this, the most pertinent of issues? Repeatedly spitting playground insults out is hardly going to engage the electorate, is it?
Yes, Leech lied on Christies. There's insunuations about his expenses and he told fibs about Bradley's record on Iraq but if Labour continue to ignore bigger picture issues then they will plunge deeper downhill yet.
Alan - thanks. I could do without compliments like that!
Chris Paul
Wednesday Jan 10, 13:40
Obviously 11 newsletters in a week did not appear on John Leech's election expenses return of which I have a copy (which anyone can get hold off from the Electoral Services Unit in the Town Hall, Rm 118 I think). The claim was riddled with problems in my view. I don't know why the Electoral Commission are not clamping down on what looks like such gross overspending. They even burnt every copy of one of their leaflets. The example that leaps out of course is the £17 for phone calls when Leech's hard working campaign included phoning hundreds and hundreds of constituents - during the election period. there were I understand at least three landlines in his HQ. The Central candidate nonsensically paid half the rent there. And for a third of student leaflets which were not it seems distributed in any city centre halls. the Gorton candidate also. His mummy was on the 'phone to Tories on the day. There's hard working and there's cheating. And ignoring the spending limits to put out 11 leaflets in a week or ring thousands of people for £17 is BOTH. Cheating hard that's what.
Anyway this strand is supposed to be about Lib Dem hypocrisy in respect of the arms industry. The A160s that strafed (word = punished) people in Somali were most likely loaded with munitions from Raytheon. Which incidentally appears to be connected to Texas Instruments, who have moved on somewhat from scientific calculators. Rennie is apparently still a shareholder and director of a PR firm lobbying for cluster bomb makers while also campaigning against them. The warlord/jailbird who is interim pres in Somalia said Bush had the RIGHT to kill SUSPECTS by aerial bombardment. If Saddam's end was gross and a sectarian lynching we can at least say this was precise. No one else got killed. Once again the Might Makes Right brigade have bombed innocents to possibly get a criminal or two. Leech meanwhile is standing with this Lib Dem arms industry gross hypocrite. He should not be. He is very weak and very foolish in my opinion.
Going back to 2005 John Hollicker. The Lib Dems were clever and Labour complacent. Myself and many others were working hard in countless other constituencies, including Rochdale that we also lost but also various safer seats. Clearly if there had been better information we would have been able to pile bodies into Withington during the last week and perhaps saved the day. We could not however have printed 10 times as many leaflets or even 2 times and stayed within the rules. These doubts about Leech's honesty on expenses go beyond 'insinuations'. It was as clear as the dreck in your bin.
peter h
Saturday Jan 13, 22:04
you guys just don't get it, do you? You've been told, in words of one syllable, why you lost the seat, why people voted against labour, but you avoid that and harp on ad nauseam about side issues which you presumably hope to turn into ammunition to fight john leech with.
It won't work lads. Those things didnt matter to the voters then, and they won't matter at the next election, not to the electoral mix you have on the electoral roll in this constituency.
Tilt at as many windmills as you like, and throw as many playground insults as you like. They won't addd up to a row of beans. Your chances of winning will depend on labour national policy - as it should in a parliamentary election. As things stand, you ain't got a prayer
sedgelypark
Sunday Jan 14, 00:19
Peter, you're turning into a proper Fib Dem. One minute saying you might come back to Lab, the next defending a very poor MP who you have admitted is doing two jobs badly.
I don't think any of us are resorting to playground insults. Chris has raised an interesting point about Leech's judgement Re: his needless association with Rennie.
There is a flaw in your argument about national polices. Leech made Christies a big issue which is a classic local issue in that it soemthing t at Withington is proud and protective of. Of course, Iraq was another issue that he used to attract the student vote depite the Fibs being aganist the war yet voting to send more troops.
Now, you're right that the focus may be on theaantional picture but the focus will also be on Leech and his record. He can't run as the underdog this time..he has to defend his woeful record.
John H is right to point out in 2005 Lab had a complacent candidate, an opponent who was shamelessly prepared to use cancer victims to get elected, there wasn't enough bodies on the streets and the Fibs could concentrate their fire on one seat.
NONE of which apply next time. Labour will select a good, fired up candidate, lies will be exposed and there will be people will be forming a queue rounds the block to get rid of Leech. And that's only the Fibs who want him out.
Peter, remember despite all the lies, the own goals by Labour and the Fibs bending the election expense rules Leech only got in by a whisker.
Next time he won't get an easy rise and as I've pointed out before Fibs are usually hard to shift but not this one.
And as you keep ignoring the issue in wards like mine that have a similar breakdown to Withington. How come we overturned a big Fib majority and returned a Lab councillor despite the war which you seem fixated on as Leech's secret weapon.
Peter, make your mind up once and for all.
Remind me to post my Fib's in Oldham leaflet story which is priceless.
Giles Barton
Sunday Jan 14, 01:59
er..Sedgley and Peter H...you're one and the same. Both at opposite ends of the political spectrum. Both as dull as dishwater.
There's 40,000+ people living in this area. You are but two and neither of you have the best of grips on reality.
Really now, the time you spend posting your pearls of non-wisdom would be better off spent getting out there and campaigning for the causes you supposedly support or the community you supposedly know so much about. Then again, why do something productive when you love the sound of your voices so much?
Why don't you arrange to take each other for tea and buns so the other people don't have to suffer this drivel and pomposity?
If you two are reflective of the types involved in local politics, is it hardly a surprise that nobody gives a sh*t?
sedgelypark
Sunday Jan 14, 15:05
Giles, you're assuming Peter and I are as apathetic as you.
I've always found that your type of studenty 'local politics are so dull and they're all the same' posturing very dull.
Neither Peter or I are pretending we have the answers or are right about what will happen at the next election but at least we have opinions.
Giles, you wrong about most everything including that Peter and I are on the opposite ends of the spectrum. We're nowhere that far apart and we are having a debate about the main topic this board is set up to discuss, ie whether JL is a good MP or not. That we do disagree on.
peter h
Sunday Jan 14, 16:12
well at least you read the things , giles. Now comes the hard bit. Say something
peter h
Sunday Jan 14, 16:13
I didnt say john leech was doing 2 jobs badly. I said I didn't see how he can do 2 jobs well. Maybe he is. I don't know, but I doubt it. I assume one will be suffering.
peter h
Sunday Jan 14, 16:21
and I saw something today which would make me personally reconsider voting labour. Peter Hain today saying labour should tackle the obscenity of high CEO salaries. 20 years ago, public company ceos uring around 25 times the average wage of their employees. It is now 120 times and rising. Now, if Labour has the balls to tackle that, and it would need serious nerve, I for one will be listening. And if Brown starts reintroducing ethics into Labour thinking...
Those are the level of things that matter at national elections, SP, not who said what about some minor local issue which didnt happen any way.
And don't underestimate Lib Dems' ability to fight their corner round here. Look at their local representation. It's better than Labour's. And it won't be full of people shouting "liar!" and thinking that represents coherent political debate either.
sedgelypark
Sunday Jan 14, 16:56
Peter, but the big question is which one is suffering?
I think the pressure on bosses' salaries is going to keep building. The big question that Brown could address is those bosses who fail\and yet still get huge payouts/salary hikes. I have no problem withg CEOs being well paid if they deliver.
I never underestimate the Fibs streetfighting ability. You onlky have to see their cleverly written Hocus Focus leaflets to understand that. It does help to have no principles.
I have no inside track on Manc With labs will fight the next election but it will be far more than just calling JL a liar. As`I say Fibs run best when they're the outsiders but when they have to actually do somethign they bget found out.
as for they are better local reps the voters disagreed throwing four of them out last time. I can only speak for my own ward but our Fubs are an unpleasent mix of arrogant, rude, thick and prone to walking out of meetings if challenged. They are very unimpressive. I do accept some Fibs are good at local level but sadly ours are hopeless.
Val
Monday Jan 15, 14:07
Has anyone else noticed that "sedgelypark" and "Chris Paul" are one and the same??! The same swivel-eyed rant, the same syntax, the same bonkers obsession, and the same words dressed up a little differently each time.
This is the man who had to apologise in the local paper for wrongly claiming John Leech had bought a luxury car to replace his ancient Daewoo.
This is the guy who's been beaten by Liberal Democrats every time he's stood for election, whether Whalley Range or City Centre. No wonder he's bitter & a bad loser.
Even Labour councillors openly concede Chris is a bit of a loony.
Norman Louis
Monday Jan 15, 16:02
Val (or is it Cllr W) - I disagree. I'm 99% certain I know who Sedgeley Park is and it isn't Chris. Your last sentence is both insulting and moronic.
That said I reckon there's probably only six people who post on this board...only three of whom use their real names.
It's a new day and nobody has mentioned Christe Hospital....yet....
Earlier, I read a BBC online report about a new type of GM egg that contains cancer-fighting drugs. I'm sure our MP will send out 40,000+ letters to claim the credit and a picture of him laying them.
Norman Louis
Monday Jan 15, 22:06
Norman, love your last para. Veh funny.
Val, as is always the case with the Fibs you're wrong...I'm not Chris Paul. In fact I've never met the guy.
Val, if you actually read the posts you'll see there are differences but I would concede we're keen for someone to justify the Christies mistruths..there you go Louis, another day another Christies reference.
Leech may not have been able to afford a luxury car before but with two jobs he should be able to afford one now. It would make it easier to commute bewteen Manchester and London.
Val, I don't know if Chris is bitter about losing but he has a right to question Leech's performance. As he points out due to boundary chnages Chris will be one of his constituents so he can say what he wants.
As you seem to an informed Fib perhaps you could explain why the kings of local politics managed to lose four seats last time round? I only ask as no-one from Leech fan club ever answers that question.
sedgelypark
Monday Jan 15, 22:07
Val, sorry I actually know why the Fibs lost four seats. It's the Labour council's fault.
peter h
Monday Jan 15, 22:31
chris paul's not a loony, neither is sedgely park. They both make perfectly rational arguments, albeit in flowery language. And at least they do attempt to argue points rather than ranting yah boo liar nonsense.
Long may they reign.
And, Norman, have you never considered that there may in fact be only one , paranoid multi-personality schizophrenic , contributor to this website, catapulted into the community by the shutting of Withington Hospital's Psychiatric Unit, and that you do not in fact exist at all but are yet another figment of its fetid imagination, nothing but an empty product of a failed Labour attempt at NHS rationalisation, destined to evaporate as soon as this site collapses?
Alan
Tuesday Jan 16, 07:58
Val, get a life!
Bob
Tuesday Jan 16, 11:27
I don't care who is who. Lets get back on topic. John Leech is a useless MP who is out of his depth and got elected because he used cancer patients and their families as political footballs. Discuss?? Don't try and deviate attention away from this fact in future. It won't work. Good try though by the Lib Dem spin masters at Leech Central
Holly Gram
Tuesday Jan 16, 15:37
Let's arrange to meet up. Maybe give speed dating a try...
peter h
Tuesday Jan 16, 20:23
if you want to get facts, then state some.
john leech is a good mp. he got elected because the electorate kicked labour out because they took us into an illegal war by lying to us.
that is fact, not spin. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isnt fact. It just means you can't face up to reality.
Until you do, you won't stand a chance of winning the seat back. The more you beleive your own myths, the easier it will be for the lib dems to rip you to pieces at the next election. And it will be all you deserve if that's all you can think of to fight your corner with.
sedgelypark
Tuesday Jan 16, 23:11
On a general note it's ironic that Chris and I (of course we are like the Borg,...one and the same...resistance is futile JL)are accused of being insane yet Val's post suggests she has very real issues. And as Peter H points out she neglects to engage in any coherent way with this debate.
Peter, it seems you keep assuming Labour's campaign will be just Two Jobs is bad and a liar stuff. It will no doubt be more subtle and multi-layered than that.
In much the same I keep saying Two Jobs is hopeless you keep saying he is a very good local MP. Perhaps you could give us evidence of this and I'm interested in specfic gains for his constituents not a load of guff that he has an office and is in the paper a lot. All MPs do that..what actually makes him so special.
After all, Two Jobs is the most expensive MP in the UK so Peter as Cuba Goodings Jr said 'Show me the money baby.'
Chris Paul
Wednesday Jan 17, 18:11
Mmmmm. Why don't some of you people start a new thread. This one is supposed to be about cluster bombs and Leech's naive standing up beside the manufacturer's PR man (still a shareholder, director and worker for McEwan Purvis) who build patriot missiles, bunker busters and cluster bombs.
In terms of losing to Libs. This is NOT because of the Libs!! Losing in Whalley Range was because of T Blair and GW Bush (and some illegal campaigning) and not because of the Lib Dems. The City Centre was 33rd out of 33 on our list of targets. Someone has to put in the work there. At least two of the LD councillors are passengers on the gravy train. They have just had an almighty scrap trying to deselect one of them ... and FAILED!!
It always strikes me that when Simon Ashley in his own name or all these damn aliases start calling other people losers they are hugely disrespecting their own people. After all TWICE as many of them are losers as winners. And this will be back to THREE TIMES and FOUR TIMES pretty soon.
In the first place I start by respecting anyone who is prepared to put themselves forward to campaign as volunteers and to serve if elected. Then I judge them on what they say - lies or not - and what they do - work for residents, or work for themselves, or get away with as little as possible.
But standing in hard seats has to be done by someone. Even the Tories get someone out in every seat. AND the Greens do.
Anyway if anyone else wants to call me a loony or say I should be sectioned or whatever then come to my door at 31 Westfield Rd M21 and do it. Or at least have the courage to use your real name as I do.
Adele
Wednesday Jan 17, 19:10
I don't think you should be sectioned!
Thomas
Wednesday Jan 17, 19:23
Thanks Chris - I've made this point several times. If people really think John Leech is delivering for the people in Manchester Withington, perhaps they should add threads to this site explaining what it is he does. Failing that, John Leech could add to the site himself - he (or someone else in the Houses of Parliament) regularly reads the blog - if he is really doing good work in the constituency he shouldn't be afraid to tell people about it.
Chris Paul
Wednesday Jan 17, 20:12
http://chrispaul-labouroflove.blogspot.com
Thanks Thomas, and Adele
Peter H - please respond here to the issue of whether John Leech should have stood up alongside the craven hypocrite Willie Rennie - who is part of the PR company that represents a cluster bomb maker and has visited their factory as an MP - to call for cluster bombs to be banned. When he visited he provided warm words of encouragement about their excellent global reputation while all the while signing EDMs and asking questions and spewing crap against their products.
Go and write on another item or start one if you want to tell Labour how to campaign etc etc or assert without any argument or illustration that John is "a good local MP". What he really is - is a good self-PR-man above everything else, thrashing around putting his name to things like a madman (which I'd better add is a turn of phrase rather than a diagnosis). He is no doubt putting in a lot of work to get re-elected i.e. campaigning for himself and his local lackeys. But he is a liar. He has poor judgement. And he is someone who is regarded by his parliamentary colleagues of all parties as a lightweight.
Ideas for new items:
1. Two probable Lib Dem winnable seats have come up in Cornwall because of their chief tactician Matthew Taylor's decision to retire after 20 years (one of the key milestones for pensions gravy?) for family reasons, and another through boundary changes. Should John Leech, whose written questions include at least two on that area (on smuggling and firearms), throw his hat in the ring and go for the easy life by the seaside?
2. Clearly other parties are choosing their candidates and deciding their strategies at the moment. K Bradley (Karen) will not be standing again as having finally kissed the last of the Tory vote here goodbye she has amazingly been rewarded by a better prospect (Staffs Moorlands). What kind of person and what kind of local issues should the Tories, Greens and Labour choose to have the best chance of doing well against La Leech?
peter h
Wednesday Jan 17, 22:27
sorry chris but as far as I'm concerned willie rennie sounds like some kind of urinary laxative. never heard of the guy except in your missives.
I don't eat and sleep politics like you do nor comb through all the entrails looking for things to attack political opponents. I'm not a Lib Dem to begin with any way. I'm Labour, but disenchanted by Blair and where he's taken the party.
Lib Dem is my way of voting against him. My experience of john leech has been 100% positive. He was a good councillor, and I've seen nothing whatsoever to suggest he's anything but a good MP. Nothing on this website has dented that belief, because it is all so hopelessly biased and therefore devalued as argument.
You and john holliker and sedgely park and thomas do at least seem to understand where Labour's been going wrong , and you have the wit to realise that John did not win this seat - Labour lost it.
And it was not primarily lost at a local level, it was lost mostly because of national policies.
The same principles will obtain next time round. Work as hard as you like , but if your national policies don't change drastically, you'll face the same set of negatives next time round.
Blair seems hellbent on making sure that even if Gordon Brown does offer true alternatives, he won't get enough time to put them into noticable effect in time for the next election, and Blair's shadow will therefore pollute your best efforts at the next general election.
Myself, I doubt Brown will change much any way. After all, he has been Number 2 in Government for 10 years and can hardly wash his hands convincingly of what has been done by that government.
You think thar because the majority here was narrow, a concentration of effort will be able to swing it back for you.
I beg to disagree. John Leech has a good local track record as a councillor, and has put a lot of work in over the years building his profile with local voters (not , admittedly, with most contributors to this website).
You don't have anyone with those credentials. KB may have been able to claim similar local strength, but he's now a Lord, so you have to start again, and as yet you don't even have a candidate, so the idea of finding anybody to match john leech is probably a pipe dream, unless you parachute somebody in from outside with some status, which is unlikely to happen and less likely to impress local voters if it does happen.
So I think your stuffed until at least the election after next.
John Holliker
Thursday Jan 18, 09:57
I've resisted until now but..
Somebody..somewhere please tell me something tangible that John Leech has done/delivered for this area in the last 12-15 months?
Here's an example of why I ask: I live on the Merseybank Estate and remember speaking to Keith Bradley about the plans to invest in the shopping parade, a new library, health centre etc.
Something first promised by my Lib Dem Councillors 6/7 years ago.
I wrote to Bradley on this issue and he told me money was in place etc etc but since Bradley's demise, what has happened? Sweet FA.
This estate is crying out for change and investment. It's ok John Leech gooning at me on leaflets when he's got a street light fixed/picked up an empty crisp packet, but an MP should be able to deliver and influence on the things that matter.
Especially when he is both a councillor AND an MP for the area.
To me, it's a case of keeping expectations low and maintaining the poor fabric of an area and blaming the nasty Labour Council as a consequence.
John's whole career is built on perception - tho yes, all politicians of all sides do this to a degree. It's up to Labour to expose this in a considered manner. The yah-boo politics of some party members on this board won't win out and could rebound nastily.
What's your real name "Mr Holliker?"
Thursday Jan 18, 13:52
Funny how there is no John Holliker on the electoral register on Merseybank. What's your real name then? I won't bother to respond to the pathetic attempt over Merseybank shops - John Leech can defend himself
Alan
Thursday Jan 18, 16:16
What does it matter what electoral register someone is on!!!! Can you only comment on this site if you live in Manchester Withington. I think it goes to show how useless Leech is when people from other constituencies recognise it and contribute to this site. Furthermore, Peter you would make a great politician... continually avoiding the question. What exactly has John Leech done since he took office. List them!! Don't skirt round it with your own personal opinion... what has he done! Lastly, can people please have the balls to name themselves when they post a comment, it would be interesting to see whether or not 'What's your real name "Mr Holliker"' was connected via the HOC when they posted!
bob
Thursday Jan 18, 16:17
which bit of the Merseybank shops is not true "Mr "what's your real name "Mr Holliker" lack of self awareness"
peter h
Thursday Jan 18, 23:06
people going to look on electoral registers looking for john holliker sounds sinister? What the hell are you playing at?
It's what john holliker says that matters, not his name. And he tends to make sense, whether you agree with him or not.
Alan, I don't avoid any question, thanks. My opinion of john leech is based on good personal experience. Just as personal experience with KB was bad. Simple as that.
I suspect in reality that both JL and KB will do/did very similar jobs for the community on a day-to-day basis. Most MPs will. It's part of their job in addition to being parliamentarians.We happen to feel john tried harder than keith, at least in our particular instances.
As for names. Let people call themselves what they want, as long as they contribute. Peter H happens to be my real name. My parents couldnt afford an entire surname. The ink was too dear
John Holliker
Friday Jan 19, 09:03
What's your real name 'What's your real name " Mr Holliker"'
Well done Poirot. Have a house point. Whilst your at it, stop frothing at the mouth and answer the question.
Peter - Alan's right and we've been here countless times before. Somebody, somewhere, give us some examples of tangible, bigger-picture things John Leech has DELIVERED for this constituency...apart from a flood of p*ss-poor mail-merged letters proclaiming himself as the King of Cancer and a kick up the arse for Labour?
Bob
Friday Jan 19, 10:43
Come on John Leech Spin Central. Just one example of something that he has made happen as a £250,000 that he could not have done as a £15k councillor.
Roger
Friday Jan 19, 12:44
Peter H. It is Leech and his politcal cronies who are searching for people on electoral registers. They are not quite as Liberal as they would like to make you think. I wonder what their public position is on ID cards as privately they are obsessed with policing all dissent.
peter h
Sunday Jan 21, 15:08
trainspotters
John Holliker
Sunday Jan 21, 15:09
Went out drinking with my cousin last night who'd been to John's constituency surgery on Friday. She reported back that John was sporting a very fetching black eye!
peter h
Sunday Jan 21, 16:47
and yet he still held his surgery. Commitment to his constituents.....
Chris Paul
Sunday Jan 21, 22:21
http://chrispaul-labouroflove.blogspot.com
Electoral registers are issued to candidates and agents ONLY for use in elections. It is an offence to disclose information from them to others for any purpose whatsoever. Lib Dems have done this before e.g. Simon Ashley outing people as non voters - therefore imaginary? doesn't follow as lots of people are not on, don't vote etc - but anyway on this blog where all kinds of ridiculous points are being made anonymously by Lib Dems it is pretty rich to claim any kudos for spotting someone - using an alias! This is hypocrisy of the highest order. Well apart from being mates with and campaigning with the famous MP Willie Rennie - the one who won the by-election in the constituency in which Gordon Brown resides - and Leech's best pal in the matter of bomb hoaxes. So (a) highest order of cheek and hypocrisy and (b) against the law, maximum penalty £5,000.
Peter H tellingly said John Leech *was* a good councillor. Now he *is* a bad councillor and a truly crapulous MP. In Friday's Metro he had an article about him containing very bad mistakes and headlined: MP's Fraud Warning.
This should appear like a Health Warning on everything Leech produces and be added to his letter head.
John Leech at this stage of his career is probably a better spinner than Keith was in more recent years. But that does not make him a good MP by any means. Just look at the nonsense in some of the EDMs he supports to see that he spends all day - when not playing footie - covering himself so that when a constituent says anything he can say "Oh, I signed this EDM" and he will also brag about the stats e.g. Bradley 200 sensibel EDMs in last year, Leech 1500 often stupid ones in his first. These are not real stats, just an illustration. He's already been doing this about the number of letters he has sent. Irrespective of whether these are form letters - approaching party political and certainly functioning as campaign PR - to big groups or genuine casework letters to individuals.
What's wrong with with his Fraud advice apart from generating a beautiful headline is on my blog under "MP's Fraud Advice".
peter h
Sunday Jan 21, 23:18
Gee guys, I love a conspiracy theory as much as the next man, but you're getting yourselves all excited for no reason.
anyone can check electoral registers. You don't need to be in possession of incriminating copies obtained for other purposes.
you can do on the web, lads.
nice try, but no.
actually john holliker's name doesn't come up when you feed it in. But so what? Maybe he's an illegal, or its an acronym, or synonym, or pseudonym, or anagram, or something else ending in m. Or maybe just a recent arrrival noton records yet. Who cares? He makes uncomfortable points for labour groupies.
Chris Paul
Monday Jan 22, 00:23
Peter H - You are doing a lovely job. As always. But it is a fact that Simon Ashley has tried to use the Electoral Register he has in his hands under privilege as a battering ram to oppose coy people in the pages of the South Manchester Distorter.
Saying they're not on there, and he is holding the full registers for elections only, therefore they have no rights to oppose his party's nonsense in south manchester, and beyond.
Normally one has to pay to get hold of the register. And of course only the ER available to political parties ONLY for campaigns includes lots of people who OPT OUT of the public register for various reasons.
Like being famous or politically active or scared of being threatened by Chorlton Park councillors. Although they get the full one anyway. But not for threatening purposes.
The anonymous person - who posted so quickly - already had the register (the FULL one I reckon to be so cocky) and I'd wager was a local Lib Dem electee, worker or volunteer.
Obviously a £5,000 fine!
Why would Peter H defend them when Peter H was only just worrying about their illiberal attacks on civil liberties by searching and trying to face down citizens - given their own predelictions?
But I'm still worrying about this strand's direction. It's about Leech's being a mate of the idiot Willie Rennie and related issues of Leech's judgement.
I have suggested some other topics. Perhaps the supporters of John Leech would like to quickly put up a ten things JL or FUDGE has done to help us item?
Perhaps the estimable owner needs to review the format or get involved in some other network to funnel the discourse a little? I've had another email from a proposed group blog just recently, have you Thomas?
Perhaps the Lib Dem trolls on here and the definitely-not-Lib-Dem Peter H need to review what they are doing so that they don't get illiberal just after being liberal and the like. Or expose their multiple identities so much.
--
John Hollicker - a disappointed resident of Chorlton Park - cos lets face it the leech, the tone and the norm are very disappointing as councillors.
It it is hard to see what it is that lights their fires too, where *do* they get their esprit de corps?
Anyway "John Hollicker" - is forever on my list of reasonable people compared to some of the pretenders from the Lib Dems. And I believe John Hollicker is an everyman for the neglected people of Chorlton Park.
John's the man. And Peter H is getting discombobulated.
Thomas
Monday Jan 22, 00:32
Just to shed a little light on the situation regarding "What's your real name "Mr Holliker?"" - the post came from Manchester City Council's network. It is a pity that Councillors don't spend more time doing the things they are elected to do - representing their local area and its residents for instance - rather than wasting tax payer's money posting on this forum.
Alan
Monday Jan 22, 07:32
Furthermore it's a shame that our councillors (I can say that now, having recently moved back to Manchester, don't check the electorol roll though because I won't be on it yet!!!) don't have more intelligence. The fact that they believe they can post anonymously shows a distinct stupidity. Even more worrying is that John seems pretty oblivious to technology as he does the same!
peter h
Monday Jan 22, 22:59
Discombobulated eh? Thrown into a state of confusion...mmm
To be accused by Chris Paul of being confused gives me a nice warm glow.
No chris, I'm not discombobulated. I leave that to the politicians. But thanks for the thought.
If local politicians on all sides would learn to stop catcalling their opponents all the time, then maybe voters would stop ignoring them in such large numbers.
You all paint John Leech as satan incarnate and your own side as being the collective archangel gabriel. And it's bollocks. You lose credibility doing that, chaps and chappesses. Try being a bit more even-handed , and you might win some hearts and minds.
and you keep going on about your blessed leaflets. Do you know anybody apart from yourselves who read them?
In this house they all go in the bin with the readers digest mailshots. I have no idea what john leech's christie leaflet said. I don't even remember seeing one. I've got better things to do in life than read that nonsense.
Same goes for most people. I know quite a lot about milshots, responses and so on.
The general professional assumption, based on research, suggests that approx 2% , TWO PERCENT, of direct mail leaflets get read.
Remember that next time you pillory some politician for some perceived calumny in some leaflet.
And if john does spend a lot of money on them, then rejoice , because he's pouring his money down the drain. it's a bloody useless way of getting a message across
John Holliker
Wednesday Jan 24, 09:17
Peter
For somebody who confesses to bin every political leaflet that comes through his door, how can you claim to be so informed?
Rumbled....again.
peter h
Wednesday Jan 24, 20:14
tv, radio, normal things. I regard all political leaflets as biased half-truths not worth thb paper theyre written on, john.
one of the great weaknesses of UK politics is there is so little debate. All parties are guilty of it. They just want to shout the opposition down and evade difficult questions which in turn results in people like paxman turning into human rottweilers trying to trip evasive interviewees up. It's the main reason for politicians now being regarded as less trustworthy than estate agents, and it's buggering up british politics.
I've no doubt john leech's pamphlets are no more honest than labour's.
Greetings from norway, by the way. January and no bloody snow here
John Holliker
Friday Jan 26, 10:11
Point taken...but how do your profess to know all locally when you read so little?
peter h
Friday Jan 26, 21:08
I don't read part political leaflets. nor , I suspect, do most normal voters. most are badly writtrn, boring, boorish, and full of half truths.
same for all parties.
I suspect they get read mostly by activists, who won't be swayed by them any way. like all the letters in the reporter from the various factions. theyre mostly utter twaddle, and, far from making the trenchant points which their authors fondly imagine them to make, they just make the protagonists look daft.
Big enders and little enders if you know your Swift.
minus 19 in oslo. bracing. and still they sweep the streets and have clean trains running on time and pensions 2/3 your income. building site workers' minimum wage is £15 per hour, including all the east europans working, brilliant schools and health service. spend their money on the people rather than bombing iraq. eat your heart out , labour.
John Holliker
Saturday Jan 27, 10:43
..think you'll find Norway doesn't have a minimum wage and average construction site wages are £9.20 an hour before tax deductions.
I thought everybody knew that.
Poland was the most impressive to me on a visit - travelled 24 hours overland with changes in minus 19 with no problem. Got a Virgin service back to London and sat in the dark outside Stafford for two hours without heating.
Do you still get scallies on the buses smoking dope and listening to bad gangsta rap on their phones?
Dave
Saturday Jan 27, 10:53
Scallies smoking dope and listening to their mobile phones naff speakers! One of the few things I am glad to see the back of. I used hate the 23 bus in the morning with all the Parrswood kids
Chris Paul
Saturday Jan 27, 20:08
http://chrispaul-labouroflove.blogspot.com/2007/01/cllr-john-leech-mp-not-working-for.html
Peter H - already discombobulated AND rapidly sliding down a slippery slope towards complete and utter discombobulation with more and more and more and more manic daft posts.
By the way, anyone visiting John Leech's own website will find that the masthead there partially reflects the reality.
It claims John in working for a list of wards and areas which DOES NOT include Chorlton Park.
A search on the term "Chorlton Park" finds two items. One of these is John's own description of himself as a councillor for the area. The other a rather confused story about social housing (fair enough we all like that) but really it could be written about any ward in Manchester with a residential building site in it.
Peter H - you're full of it and I believe hardly a word of what you burble on this website.
As you "don't read" any political leaflets (but love reading and writing here - strange that) you really aren't in play as an approachable voter.
Waste of time.
peter h
Sunday Jan 28, 22:19
youre too kind chris, you really are. the point I'm trying to make is that most voters do not make up their minds on whom to vote for from party political leaflets but from their experience day to day, and what they see on TV, with a lesser input from newspapers. leaflets make good paper aeroplanes at best.
there's nothing strange about writing on this website and not reading political leaflets. this is a forum for discussion. So I discuss, and have the occasional intellectual brawl. all good clean fun.
john, there IS a minimum wages in the construction industry in norway. I was with a guy employing 100 polish workers there on friday, an he should know. He said it was around £12 per hour. I believe it is a recent development, though , and word may understandably not yet have spread to Merseybank estate.
AND government inspectors visit the building sites to check the employment conditions and to check for illegal labour, and shut the sites on the spot if anything is amiss. Now why doesnt your super dooper labour party protect workers like that?
Ken
Monday Jan 29, 08:32
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