Posted by JLW on Monday Jul 25, 16:02
The future of the Christie Hospital is Safe - reports Metro News this week.
Surprised?
We thought not.
The Hospital's super £7m critical care unit is on the way and we have confirmation that the GMSHA 'review' of cancer services across Greater Manchester safeguards the hospital.
(Remember folks, this is the very review John said could 'mean the end' for the hospital!!)
So why are we still banging on about all of this.
Well, the material issue at stake here is that John Leech's election materials gave impression that the Christie Hospital was under the threat of closure.
Quite simply, it wasn't.
John maintains that he was acting on the media coverage after Christie doctors/consultants had signed a statement. This statement was never presented to the Christie Board (although the hospital has, at last, confirmed the signed statements exist.)
In mid-April, one consultant broke ranks and took it on herself to provide a version of events to the Manchester Evening News. Why? Well that's a very good question...
But here's the rub: The threat of 'closure' does NOT appear anywhere in the Doctors statement. It is, quite clearly, a ludicrous concept, given the investment past, present and future - including the £7m Critical Care Unit that will now be built (pending details of which John and co. should have known at the time...but never mentioned).
Yet days later John is asking all of us to sign 'Save' the Hospital...to ask for a 'guarantee that Christie Hospital will not be closed.
Incredulously, he goes on record as saying the review could mean the end for Europe's largest cancer hospital.
Remember: Neil Goodwin (GMSHA Ch Exec) said unequivically such rumours were 'complete and utter nonsense.' But it was John Leech and the Lib Dems that helped create the impression that the Christie was under the threat of closure. It's there in black and white in their election materials.
Whether the people of Manchester Withington forgive or forget this abject opportunism remains to be seen
Perhaps John will put things to the test when he resigns his council seat ahead of the May 2006 Local Elections...
+ tags coming soon
( 79 Comments )
Len Draycott
Tuesday Jul 26, 02:06
Well said and good on you people for sticking to your guns.
Leech and his cronies can bluff and bluster all they want in a bid to divert attention away from what they printed in their leaflets.
This distasteful episode has left cancer patients and their families vulnerable, angry and confused unnecessarily.
Resigning his council seat would create a 'referendum' of sorts and also end criticism of his abilities to perform two-jobs.
Jane Stanier
Tuesday Jul 26, 02:09
Agree on Christie Hospital issue and been able to see through the Lib Dem guff. And nice to see you acknowledge the other factors (Iraq, Metrolink et al?) at play that caused Bradley's demise.
However, whether the local Labour Party can capitalise on all of this I dunno.
peter h
Tuesday Jul 26, 04:26
From what we've seen and read, what John Leech actually did was help ensure that Christies did not get damaged by having key sections hived off to other hospitals. Most people I know think he deserves congratulating. Y
ou guys are just bad losers, and you come over very clearly as that. It is impossible for local Labour party to sound principled when it comes to hospital closures after what you allowed to happen to Withington, and the dishonest way you tried to present that little clininc which replaced it as some kind of triumph.
And it is impossible for you to lecture others about honesty after what your party had done in lying asbout Iraq. You have no moral high ground left.
Tim
Tuesday Jul 26, 05:29
Hmmm...
How can the hospital have been declared safe if it was never under threat?
Perhaps the Manchester Metro News had joined the Manchester Evening News, The BBC and the 60 Doctors at the Christie in this big conspiracy to pretend there was a threat when there wasn't.
Tim
Tuesday Jul 26, 06:00
Labour really are wriggling now aren't they?
The Labour party is the lone voice saying that the Christie wasn't under threat.
Labour refuse to accept that the petition exists. Yet Christie's say it does.
Now I read that this site is questioning the motives of the Head of Surgery and Critical Care at the Christie for raising her concern over the future of the Christie Hospital! This beggars belief - this site is starting to sound like some extreme American site.
She did not break ranks - 60 doctors held similar views. Others have been quoted in the press. But to question the motives of the head of surgery at the Christie I just find amazing.
I think that quite rightly people will accept that the Christie has been saved, and that the Labour party have been running a bitter, personal and negative campaign against John Leech and the Liberal Democrats.
John 2
Tuesday Jul 26, 15:48
Agree with the previous comments.
My Christie source (quoted on another Christie thread now removed!) summed it up nicely "they are bad losers".
I suspect that many will share that view - particularly after the ridiculous publicity stunt mounted by labour "activists" who reportedly "ambushed" the local MP on this issue - suprised that at least one of these "activists" turned out to be a veteran local councillor - which is stretching the term "activist" a little beyond its normal bounds.
Ala
Tuesday Jul 26, 18:03
It's better than sitting behind a computer and moaning John 2? Very self righteous there in your armchair with your anonymous contacts.
Alan
Tuesday Jul 26, 18:11
This is completely unrelated to te issue and not party political Thought I would make you all aware of a security alert that I have received today. It reads as follows:
Security Warning - We have received a warning from the London Ambulance Service of activities in their area. Whilst the below behaviour is not common place in Greater Manchester I have spoken with the GMP and their risk assessment of the action is to circulate it as a potential threat.
The London Ambulance Service have units closely associated with the Police based in South London who are instrumental in fighting gang related crimes. The 'street' gangs in London have initiation tasks which new gang members have to carry out to be admited into 'the gang'. The latest craze is to drive around, deliberately with no lights on their cars. The first person who 'flashes' them, points at them or sounds their horn at them has to be followed by that gang member in their car, who then has to fire a shot into that vehicle with no regard to who is inside.
Ou official instruction is that if we see a vehicle with no lights on we are NOT to flash it etc. and the advice to friends and family is that you should ignore any vehicles you see without lights on.
peter h
Tuesday Jul 26, 18:37
Thats me stuffed then. My volvo's lights are permanently on whether I like or not. Now I'll never get in a gang. Except maybe the Labour gang. If they let blair in, they'll let anybody in.
John 2
Tuesday Jul 26, 18:53
Alan?
My apologies if I come over as self righteous, certainly not intended - not sure if the "moaning" bit refers to all those who can't let the Christie's "issue" drop, or to me - but if so not sure what I am moaning about. As for my anonymous contact - I was doing what any sensible elector would do, trying to find out for myself what is going on rather than trusting any politician or journalist. My brief conversation (albeit with the limitations of a sample size of 1) gave me a rather different perspective from what I had gleaned from the papers or from here.
My final point on this one, because I am getting tired of the subject now, is that all political activists tend to assume that other people see the world through their glasses. Most people do not give politics much if any thought, and a political party that keeps trying to rerun an election that it can't quite believe it lost is unlikely to be able to relate to most of its electors.
Alan
Tuesday Jul 26, 19:18
John 2, there are people on this site that clearly disagree over the issue of Christie. It would seem that I disagree with you and you with me.
It would seem reasonable to suggest that perhaps we should just agree to strongly disagree on the issue.
Although a member, I am not acting on behaf of the Labour Party and my issue that I raise have nothing to do with Keith losing his seat. Of course I was suprised Keith lost and yes I wanted him to win but for me this is not what all this is about. People are mistaking this for 'sour grapes' and they are wrong. Keith lost - that's politics but it doesn't mean I should let John Leech of for what I believe to be unprincipled and misleading campaigning.
Dominic Hardwick
Tuesday Jul 26, 19:24
Not sure if Alan was part of this 'ambush', but I find it very hard to swallow that he accuses us of moaning about Christies from in front of a computer screen whent that is what he and Thomas Graham (I still can't fathom why an ex patrol leader has so little taste) and the Labour party are just moaning about Christies.
It doesn't seem to matter that 60 doctors and the head surgeon (all from Christies), the BBC, the MEN, and the Manchester Metro all say that Christies was under threat, it only matters what Labour says.
On a side note, do you think that the BBC would still have the liscense fee if what it said about Iraq and Christies was a lie? of course it wouldn't as it wasn't.
Dominic Hardwick
Tuesday Jul 26, 19:26
So it's unprincipalled to let people know that the largest cancer hospital in Europe is under threat and that it's staff think so too?
Dave Wilson
Tuesday Jul 26, 20:06
This site is getting so very boring, which is a shame as it has great potential. I think Thomas has provided a great opportunity here, yet the potential goes to waste. Why, do I say this!
Simple, this is "JOHN LEECH WATCH" Not "THE CHRISTIE HOSPITAL IS IT? IS IT NOT CLOSING? WATCH"
Christie Hospital is safe. Lets get onto more pressing issues!
Dominic Hardwick
Tuesday Jul 26, 20:13
But then again, it's perfectly principalled to vote Labour after their apalling management of shaky and unreliable intelligence to prove that Saddam could launch WMDs within 45 minutes of an order to do so.
Dominic Hardwick
Tuesday Jul 26, 20:18
Unfortunately, most of the labour supporters on this site (by their own admission) say that this site is because of John Leech's 'unprincipalled and misleading campaigning'. Not that it seems to matter that what he said was true.
peter h
Tuesday Jul 26, 20:32
I'd like to apologize for my son dominic's crap spelling. I'm just off to make a cup of tea then sue manchester grammer school .
As for you dave I think you'll find that the owners of this website can't see beyond blind hatred for John Leech because he humiliated them and won the seat. Minor matters like Iraq, bombs in London, GM crops infecting weeds, global warming, starvation in Niger, or Man City selling saun wright phillips all pale into insignificance when compared to john leech sending out one sodding little leaflet which only the labour party read any way 3 months ago. Personally I think John did it on purpose to wind them up, and boy did he succeed. First rule in debate is that he who loses his temper loses the argument. And Labour did that big time.
Dave Wilson
Tuesday Jul 26, 21:13
Peter, I was laughing so hard I nearly fell of the chair!
Yeah I think you might be right, may be John has just been winding them up all along!
As for more important matters, yes you are right I can't believe city sold the only decent player. I hope SWP (no not the socialist worker party, I mean the other SWP) takes City's run of bad look down south with him!
Dave Wilson
Tuesday Jul 26, 21:16
John, I think Dominic seems to have just as good as spelling as his father, unless you really did mean Manchester Grammer School? Is that like were the liberal middle classes take their kids nowadays? I know a few Labour supporters send their kids to Manchester Grammar School?
peter h
Wednesday Jul 27, 04:19
I spell it grammer as a matter of principle, or principal as my son seems to think it spelled. Odd how few people notice.
I was taking the mickey about Shaun Wright phillips, I'm afraid, This house loathes professional football. Strictly rugby. Go down to sale sharks for a match, and you'll see 10 000 fans in the stadium and not a copper in sight, opposing fans drinking together, 7 foot tall 20 stone forwards doing what the ref says without ever arguing.
As for city, at least they act like a football club not a franchise.
As for MGS, the sad fact is that it is a brilliant school. "Sad" because I don't understand why the state schools aren't just as good. Every kid deserves an education that good, It shouldn't just be reserved for people who can afford to pay for it. You'd havce thought that a Labour government, more than anybody else would be striving to turn our schools and hospitals into the best in the world. But they don't seem to have sny idea how to do it.
Dominic Hardwick
Wednesday Jul 27, 05:44
I know my spelling hasn't been perfect, but please don't complain, i'm playing a computer game, taking phone messages and typing with one hand, I'm not meant to multi-task!!!
To be honest with you Dave, I would have gone to Parrswood but because of the Labour government messing around with the link systems, i was among 30 people just out of range and many more who were out of range. I eventually was offered a place, but that was after rigorous campaigning by my mum and my friemds mums (no dads, strange really), and then the offer came in the last week of August when my fees for the first term were already paid. In total though, only 4 people went to MGS but I know that at least two went to MHSG, 6 people in two years. We had even been told in year five that we should start thinking about who we would want to be in a class with when we went to Parrswood. Most of my classmates at Cavendish Rd. Primary had gone to there specifically because they could get a chance to enroll at Parrswood, the best local comprehensive because of the link system in place, as a consequence most have now gone to Trinity, Oakwood, Burnage, Cedar Mount and Deucey. The sudden abolition of the link system was another bad move in Labour's long process of gradually alienating the constituency.
Alan
Wednesday Jul 27, 13:51
I actually sympathise on this point because I too was nearly a victim of the link system, however that was under the Tory government. I was due to go to a very rough school down the road and after alot of effort I was finally allowed to go to another school which was a 30 min bus ride away. It was still a state school and it was excellent, however I appreciate that not all schools are.
Dominic Hardwick
Wednesday Jul 27, 15:50
I was actually against the abolition of the link system though.
Dave Wilson
Wednesday Jul 27, 16:32
I feel torn. I have a young baby boy, and I know it is a few years off yet, but I am wondering which primary school I should be sending him too. I feel torn between believing in the State should cough up the cost of my child's education, yet the current system makes teaching very hard, and thus some schools failing some pupils. I know my child is likely to better educated privately, but why should I be expected to pay, when a) I pay a lot of tax, and b) my child in the future, will be paying a lot of tax?
Alan
Wednesday Jul 27, 20:19
I would suggest in that case that there are benefits to the links system in addition to down sides.
If I had followed "my link" then I probably wouldn't have left school with any GCSE's because it was probably likely the teachers there didn't even have them.
peter h
Wednesday Jul 27, 23:09
Dave
The problem isn't the primary schools, it's the secondary schools, so send your child to the local primary school. He'll be fine.
If when he's 10 you don't like the look of the secondary schools on offer, then you have to make a decision
Myself and several other parents found that our kids at age 10 were disadvantaged to the extent that if we did want them to go to a fee paying school, then they'd have to sit entrance exams.
The only advantage of private primary schools is that they coach kids to be able to sit those exams, whereas state schools do not. This was easily overcome with a couple of dozen private lessons from various tutors. My son and at least half a dozen of his friends from Cavendish Road did this and they all sailed through the exams and got places at MGS, William Hulme, Stockport, Cheadle and so on.
Private primary schools don't really serve any purpose other than getting kids used to entrance exams. And they put up unnecessary barriers between kids at an age when they need to learn to mix. Snob factories.
We all went the fee paying route for secondary schools because we were barred from Parrs Wood and there was no decent local alternative. We were offered Ducie or Cedar Mount - poor schools and impossible to get to from Didsbury for an 11 year old on the bus.
But I have to say that it has been the best investment of my life. MGS is a wonderful school. Brilliant atmosphere, no trace of snobbery, huge emphasis on academic pursuits and making kids feel good about themselves. They produce exceptionally well educated, well balanced, happy kids.
What pisses me off is that I do not see why state schools can't be that good too. Obviously they won't be so academic because MGS can cherry pick brainy kids, but they should still be able to offer the same quality of schooling, and produce well-rounded kids in the same numbers. And just from the faxct that all our local state comprehensives fall below national averages tells us that they don't. I don't know why, but something is wrong there. All kids deserve the best start in life. I hope you get that chance with your kids without having to pay. But if necessary, then you only have one option , you get the best you can for your son, because he's your son and he matters more than political correctness
Alan
Wednesday Jul 27, 23:53
Peter, I agree with what you say completely but do you not agree that schools like MGS differ from state schools in the sense that unruly kids are discouraged from going due to the exams. State schools, certainly the one that I went to was excellent yet unruly, disruptive kids who didn't want to learn disrupted those that did. Whole lessons were ruined because people made it their mission to disrupt them. I don't know, perhaps private schools have the same problem but for state schools to become what they should be, a major effort needs to be made in order to deal with unruly pupils who stop others from learning, and at my school gave several good teachers nervous breakdowns!
Dave Wilson
Wednesday Jul 27, 23:59
Alan,
I meant to put High school not primary, which is even further into the future, so hopefully (and I am being optomistic) will give time for the then government to sort the problems out.
One of the reasons I voted the Lib Dems is because they are willing to take the brave step of increasing basic rates of tax, thus being able to invest in state education. I do not like Labour's idea of investing in schools through PFI (another name for privatisation) as look what that did to the Railways, Gas, Telephone etc etc
Alan
Thursday Jul 28, 00:08
I have to say Dave, I'm no fan of Richard Branson and his scandalous rail charges so I appreciate your concerns on privatisation.On a recent trip to London a return on Virgin was £175; it cost me half that to drive half way to Kettering and get the Midland Mainline Service, including unlimited tube travel.( there has got to be something instrumentally wrong with that!!)
I have to admit I am not at present completely up to date with what is going on with education and have only related the issue to my own experience at school.
Dave Wilson
Thursday Jul 28, 00:17
I know a bit as my wife is a primary school teacher, and I used to work for an LEA, but not in a teaching role.
Alan
Thursday Jul 28, 00:26
Someone in my family was Literary Advisor for Warwickshire and is now Deputy Head of a state secondary. They say that from the front line education and school in general are improving and they have seen a massive difference in education and standards over the years.
I'm not being party political about it because I recognise that alot needs to be done in education... and transport!!
peter h
Thursday Jul 28, 04:56
Alan
The answer to disruptive kids ruining lessons for other kids is simple but not politically correct. You kick them out.
Pupils have an absolute right , and a need, to get education without other kids ruining it.
Obviously the disruptive kids need educating too. In truth, they need it more because they've got problems. So they should get their education separately and in a way which addresses their needs properly.
It's a simple solution but probably complex and expensive in execution, but if you really want to give kids the best education then it has to be done. Part of the problem of comprehensives is that they fail to address the needs of kids of different aptitiudes and different abilities properly because they try to lump everyone together. One of the advantages of private education is that it has cherrypicked kids of a similiar ability and then the school can focus better.
I was a teacher for 3 years. One of a teacher's biggest problems with mixed ability classes is the near impossibility of addressing 30 different kids' different needs in a 1 hour lesson. You give them a test. One kid might get 4 out of 10 and have done brilliantly for his ability. Another night get 8 and have done badly for his, yet you have to be seen to be even handed. And in my (limited)experience, by the way, a lot of disruptive kids are disruptive because the teacher can't handle them, or can't be bothered. You end up having to make a lot of compromises and it never works properly.
So in a phrase. we need more selectivity and focus in education in order to allow schools to bring out the best in kids. People seem to be frightened to say it because theyre scared of stigmatizing some kids and branding them as failures. But that is only because you have a single means - GCSEs - of measuring the kids, with the result that GCSEs have to be watered down so that all kids can pass them and they become consequently meaningless.
Dominic Hardwick
Thursday Jul 28, 06:13
I hope that you aren't suggesting that GCSEs are... easy.
However, MGS has seen its fair share of mentally destroyed and killed teachers
3 teachers have died whilst i have been there, and two have had near mental break downs. I'm sorry to say that my classmates caused one near-breakdown in a very kind teacher.
Dave Wilson
Thursday Jul 28, 16:53
I certainly don't think GCSE's are easy. However, I do think that the current system of exams at 16 and at Further Education level need to be changed. Personally, I think that GCSE's should be scrapped and that education should be compulsory to the age of 18. At 16 young people should be give the chance to go either academic or vocational. And more emphasis on personal achievement and not on Stats/League Tables. I mean what is "average"? If figures increase or decrease one year, does that change the "average" for the following year? The answer is No. Why not let teachers get on with what they do best... Teach.... not write reports for this, that and the other governmental department!
peter h
Thursday Jul 28, 19:53
Oddly enough, there is a very good article in Guardian today advocating the total scrapping of all selective schools, be it grammar schools, faith schools etc, so that ALL kids went to comprehensives, on the grounds that a lot of the brightest kids get sucked out of the system and that makes it more difficult for state schools to shine. Well worth reading.
I find it impossible to argue with the artcle's logic.
And I also think that if all those middle class parents were forced to send their kids to local comprehensives, including MPs (!) and PMs (!!) , they'd make damned sure the schools performed.
And it would stop various religions sowing bigotted or separatist ideas into kids' heads, for that matter.
I've often thought how daft it is that middle classes moan about how much tax they pay, and then merrily cough up £150 a week - £200 before tax - to pay for each kid's schooling, then another £50 a week before tax for BUPA health insurance.
If only a small part of that was going into state education and health and being used properly, they wouldn't need the private sector to begin with.
Which brings us back to a point made by Dave earlier - higher taxes.
Only an idiot will reject higher taxes if it buys better services. It just needs explaining and executing properly.
I would also like to point out that my son had no part in the deaths of those teachers and has cast-iron alibis in each case
Dave Wilson
Friday Jul 29, 15:16
Denmark has the highest income tax rate, with its top-taxed citizens paying 68% of their hard-earned crowns. The basic tax rate begins at 42%.
It also has one of the best state school systems. Can you ever imagine the UK Labour government do that? No, because they and the Tories are identical! So, schools and health etc will continue to decline.
Alan
Friday Jul 29, 18:55
I'm not being funny but if they raised taxes that much I wouldn't be able to afford rent, cost of living etc. Would you Dave?
Dave Wilson
Friday Jul 29, 19:46
I was just using it as an example. I don't think we need to raise taxes that much, no, but I am sure an extra penny in the pound would be okay for the vast majority of people?
Dave Wilson
Friday Jul 29, 19:47
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4725907.stm
Power to the people!
peter h
Saturday Jul 30, 03:19
Alan, your rents would reflect your ability to pay.
As for tax rates, we could start in this country by actually collecting the tax due. There is an enormous black economy which pays no tax and almost all high earners from the Queen downwards employ a multitude of means to avoid or evade taxes. THe leakage in the system is ridiculous. Ask any businessman. I'm one of those oddballs who actually pays all his taxes, and I can assure you I am in a minority.
peter h
Saturday Jul 30, 03:19
Alan, your rents would reflect your ability to pay.
As for tax rates, we could start in this country by actually collecting the tax due. There is an enormous black economy which pays no tax and almost all high earners from the Queen downwards employ a multitude of means to avoid or evade taxes. THe leakage in the system is ridiculous. Ask any businessman. I'm one of those oddballs who actually pays all his taxes, and I can assure you I am in a minority.
Alan
Saturday Jul 30, 14:15
Well at the moment even a studio hovel is over £350 pm in Didsbury/ Withington area and even though I have done a degree my current wage is terrible, so are you saying that if I paid more tax, taking more off the precious little I get anyway, then that rent/ council tax, bills etc would become reduced?
Also I agree on your other point but as I'm sure you are aware it isn't just the business men and the rich it is the others who live off benefits they claim fraudulently; those who are not disabled, claiming disability; those who work but also claim job seekers allowance etc etc. I think that more has been done to combat this problem but as of yet not enough has!
peter h
Saturday Jul 30, 20:41
if you want the services, they have to be paid for. Rents reflect the market. The market is dictated by what people can afford. Otherwise the market collapses. It balances out in the end
Dave Wilson
Monday Aug 01, 19:38
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4734665.stm
Although good news for Brian Haw, it's bad news for Democracy. You know... that thing that Blair wants Iraq to have?
And of course the terrorists are not changing the way we get on with our day to day life. Thanks all you Labour supporters!
Brave New World?
peter h
Tuesday Aug 02, 03:39
actually the terrorists may well achieve the opposite of what they intended. MUslims are beginning to address their relationship with this country
Dave Wilson
Tuesday Aug 02, 14:21
http://www.yougov.com/archives/pdf/TEL050101030_1.pdf
It may be true that some Muslims are beginning to address their relationship with this country, but a significant minority believe that the terrorist cause was justified!
They still see the West as very Islamicphobic (which of course the West is), and until the West changes its view of Mulsim countries and Islam as a relgion, and gets off with a psuedo-Cruisaid, then we might get somewhere. We only have to look at how at long last Catholic terrorist groups and political groups have changed, along with the Protestant governments of the UK have changed over the whole Northern Ireland issue.
Dave Wilson
Tuesday Aug 02, 19:21
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4737849.stm
Shock-Horror! Jack Straw admits that his policy in Iraq isn't helping Iraqis!!!!
I feel a smug statisfaction taking over my body! "Told You So"
peter h
Wednesday Aug 03, 03:47
Its all very well to say we are islamophobic, and of course that has to be got rid of where it exists, but a lot of muslims also want to set up a community within this coun try which is semi-detached from it, and that has to be fought against too, for their sake as well as ours. I sometimes get fed up with people calling us racist when they try to separate themselves from us. It doesn't work. There is an inbuilt problem when this coun try finds itself in conflict of any kind with a Muslim country and a lot of muslims then can't decide whose side theyre on.
For somebody like me who disapproves strongly of UK involvement in Iraq, it would never occur to me that my loyalty might lie elsewhere against my own country. With some Muslims there is a confusion of loyalty which in extremis ends up in teroroist attacks against what they should regard as their own people and their own homeland. That to me is a fundamental flaw in their approach , not ours
peter h
Wednesday Aug 03, 03:51
jack straw is on very thin ice because he depends on the muslim vote in his own constituency. He's always had a good relationship with them and is well respected there, but he must be very uncomfortable when he has to defend what he knows to be indefensible vis-a-vis Iraq. I bet he talks very differently in private
Dave Wilson
Wednesday Aug 03, 17:19
I agree that for a lot of Muslim's in Britian they choose to live in communities mainly in built up areas, so they often feel isolated from the wider community. But then imagine that you decided to Australia or South Africa for example. Do you choose to go and live in a "White" neighbourhood or a "Black" neighbourhood? I bet most White people would choose to live with people that can speak the same language and have similar cultural idealogies!
However, I am talking about Islamaphobia from a societal level. In the 1950's and 1960's we as a counrty actively encouraged people from other countries to come here as migrant workers, paid them pefectic wages, gave them jobs that were demeening, poor housing conditions etc etc. Racism was entrenched in our society (even the Irish would end up in slum conditions). That racism, whether overt or covert has been passed down generations. I know I still hold some racist views, because they were entrenched in me, by my parents and grandparents (however I like to think that I am trying to address these feelings etc). Racism and prejudices of other types (such as Islamaphobia) easy get intermingled with one and other.
Having worked as a community worker in the past, I have seen extremism on both sides, (as well as moderates), so I think it is too easy for you to blame "them" and not "us"!
Dave Wilson
Wednesday Aug 03, 17:21
That should have read:
But then imagine that you decided to EMIGRATE TO Australia or South Africa for example.
peter h
Thursday Aug 04, 02:53
When the english went to live overseas in the past, they were often the worst emigrants. Look at South Africa and Zimbabwe, for instance. No assimilation whatsoever. So we are in no position to preach.
My point is simply that Muslims are failiung more than any other immigrants to assimilate into this country, and a lot of that has to be their fault. I work a lot with Indians and Chinese, and have mixed a lot with black people here. In all their cases, when they have any difficulty integrating , it tends to be our fault for putting barriers up. With Muslims, they have the additional difficulty of putting up their own barriers too.
Dave Wilson
Thursday Aug 04, 14:39
I think a lot of the younger muslims are now mixing Western culture with their traditional Islamic culture pretty well.
peter h
Thursday Aug 04, 23:07
I hope they do, but at the moment it's the ones that don't who get the headlines and get to air their views in the media.
Dave Wilson
Friday Aug 05, 14:27
We love doom and gloom. Very rare you get happy headlines!
peter h
Saturday Aug 06, 01:45
Read the reporter today if you want a laugh.
There's some bloke called Chris Paul who is apparently one of the Labiban on the letter pages and he seems to have lost his sanity. I have two degrees in Languages and I can't understand a bloody word of his attempt at polemic against John Leech. It's a bizarre letter - unless some subeditor was having an off-day
Dave Wilson
Sunday Aug 07, 23:33
No one delivers the Reporter round here. Wish I could see it!
peter h
Monday Aug 08, 03:29
be grateful for small mercies
Dave Wilson
Monday Aug 08, 17:44
Has this become the "Peter and Dave" forum?
peter h
Wednesday Aug 10, 11:38
they ran out of arguments in the end. They lost. Getting to be a habot already.....
Dave Wilson
Wednesday Aug 10, 23:41
I think you may be right Peter. I guess I am going to have to find another forum to argue/debate on. ;-)
Steve
Wednesday Aug 10, 23:44
Some of us are here... obviously with it being the summer I think things have died down. Also tbh there hasn't been much going on with John Leech (well as far as I've heard anyway). He still doesn't seem to have an office (or at least not that I've heard of).
Alan
Thursday Aug 11, 00:50
Apparently Steve, I've been told by John himself that he will be moving into his new office within the next week. Over 3 months now and counting.. still he shouldn't get too comfortable anyway... he'll only be in it for 4/5 years.
peter h
Thursday Aug 11, 03:05
yeah. Lib dems have a really poor track record for hanging on to their seats in south manchester, don't they , Alan.
peter h
Thursday Aug 11, 03:10
and you arent going to be helped by tony blair's soundbite politics based on deporting and prosecuting people whose opinions he doesnt like come Autumn, deporting people to fascist regimes as long as the regimes promise not to torture them. Your leader keeps digging the hole he's in deeper and deeper and deeper. He'll be in Australia soon
Dave Wilson
Thursday Aug 11, 14:20
Whey-hey! Things are looking up. I thought this place had died of death. I think it will be interesting to see how accurate Alan's predictions will be (I am sure Alan posted to me some remark about being good at predictions makes a good MP?!?! when I was talking about the death rate of Iraq I believe).
At the rate Tony Blair is going, I am sure the likes of me and Peter will be deported soon (one can hope!) or at worst the both of us will be in the Tower of London on grounds of Treason for being too vocal against this government.
peter h
Friday Aug 12, 21:23
Well, theyre about to deport 9 people to Algeria. Apparently Algeria has given scouts honour that they won't torture them. So that's all right then. Of course, they don't torture them in Guantanamo Bay either. Must get a new dictionary and look up what New Labour definition of torture is. Probably something about having your seat pinched by Lib Dems.
Of course, Labour will have the minor problem that one person criticized recently for sympathizing with suicide bombers was a barrister by the name of cherie booth.
Alan
Friday Aug 12, 22:43
You are taking what Cherie Blair said completely out of context Peter, and you know it!
peter h
Saturday Aug 13, 20:41
rubbish! she said it about palestinian suicide bombers, talking about the hopelessness they must feel aqbout their plight to be driven to such desperate measures.
That is exactly IN context. She was sympathizing with their plight.
peter h
Sunday Aug 14, 03:05
till 24 hours ago I despised john mccririck. now I want have his babies.
Steve
Sunday Aug 14, 03:10
I think its a little unfair to say that the Labour government supports what happened in Guantanamo bay... they made a massive effort to get the British citizens that were there brought back to the UK.
Dave Wilson
Sunday Aug 14, 14:29
Steve, Labour doesn't openly condem the USA policy in Guantanmo Bay either!
peter h
Monday Aug 15, 05:10
do you seriously tihnk that blair could not have got those guys back from guantanamo bay if he'd really wanted to? Grow up. He vpaid lip service and them just let them rot
Steve
Monday Aug 15, 06:28
I didn't suggest that Blair (infact I think it was most likely nothign to do with TB - Jack Straw) couldn't have got the British citizens back if he hadn't got involved with the Americans. I simply pointed out that the Government (and I'd hope all of us) disagreed with how the prisoners were being treated and made the Americans give us them back.
Your constant "Grow Up" comments are getting tiring - it is up to me to express an opinion. Make your point and I'll make mine; let's not descend into pointless insults.
Dave Wilson
Monday Aug 15, 14:26
Mind you, with have our own smaller version of Guantanamo Bay in Belmarsh Prison. We are no better than the Yanks!
Spawnee
Monday Aug 15, 15:41
Interesting to see that Mark Hunter the new Cheadle lib dem MP announced that he will be leaving Stockport Council so soon after winning the by-election. Yet JL has yet to say what he is doing about his council post!
John
Monday Aug 15, 15:47
Yes, I noticed that - despite his faults as a council leader at least he has the decency to represent people properly (and therefore decide to step down). As a resident of Chorlton Park I don't want an absentee councillor that can't offer me the same committment as he previously did. John was an excellent councillor, but I don't think many people would disagree with the fact that he can't be as dedicated as he was while being MP.
On a sad note, I've just got back from the cricket - it's sold out.
peter h
Tuesday Aug 16, 03:22
steve
sorry if you find my comments about "grow up" tiring. Misplaced in your case.
But a lot of comments from a couple of quarters are petty and juvenile, and it annoys me intensely - as a lifelong labour supporter who now votes Lib Dem in despair at what has happened to Labour recently - to see Labour party activists showing so little vision. It feels like the labour party has been hijacked.
As for your point about Guantanamo Bay, I must disagree. Labour allowed its own countrymen to languish in that grotesque abomination of a place, shedding corcodile tears here for our consumption but allowing USA to carry on doing it when it had the power to force USA to hand them over if it chose to exercise that power. That is cynical hypocrisy. They MUST have known what those guys were being subjected to because M16 officers were visiting and interrogating them too. They have no excuse, and feeling bad about it but doing nothing when they had the ability to do something is tantamount to complicity in torture.
RHA
Monday Jan 23, 03:06
I cannot believe that people think Tony Blair is the labour party. At the next election cardiff central, manchester withington et al will be reclaimed by a rejuvenated centre left labour party
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