Posted by JLW on Tuesday Jul 19, 10:52
A press release from John Leech says he has handed over 1500 names to the Strategic Health Authority calling for the Authority to garuantee that Christie Hospital will not close. We'd interested to hear from the people that signed the petition and what your thoughts are on the subsequent media coverage.
You can find the press release at KEEP CHRISTIES - LEECH
+ tags coming soon
( 74 Comments )
Len Draycott
Tuesday Jul 19, 20:57
Yes, I came across this press release.
Only a few weeks ago I thought John was protesting that he had never said Christies was under the threat of closure...
How things change.
Steve
Wednesday Jul 20, 16:47
Its funny, but I thought his freepost returns on the election expenses were about £20... I don't think you can post 1500 signatures for that much. How else did people hand them over?
Dave Wilson
Wednesday Jul 20, 17:29
Call me cynical- but if I had seen the petition, I wouldn't of signed it, because since when have the Labour Government intervened when the people protest about policy, via petition, public demonstration or other forms of protest?
Dave Wilson
Wednesday Jul 20, 17:34
Call me cynical- but if I had seen the petition, I wouldn't of signed it, because since when have the Labour Government intervened when the people protest about policy, via petition, public demonstration or other forms of protest?
Len Draycott
Wednesday Jul 20, 18:29
Dear Cynical
Fox Hunting.
Do I win £5?
Dave Wilson
Wednesday Jul 20, 19:15
Dear Len, I will give you £5 if you give me a fiver for each of the following:
Iraq War (cancels the fiver I owe you)
Tution Fees (makes me five pounds better off)
GM crops (makes me ten pounds better off!)
It seems I am ten pounds better off already
Dave Wilson
Wednesday Jul 20, 21:48
http://www.labour-watch.com/index.asp
Not sure if any of you have seen the above site? I don't think it is as well presented as this site, but still has some good pointers!
Alan
Wednesday Jul 20, 23:56
Dave, we elect people to run the country for us; they implement what they believe to be the most effective policy.
Dave Wilson
Thursday Jul 21, 00:13
If that is the case Alan, what about the Tory Poll Tax?
Dave Wilson
Thursday Jul 21, 00:16
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/constituencies/default.stm
By the way Alan, when you say "We"... you do realise that only 35.3% of voters, voted for Labour? Just over one third! So roughly two thirds of voters didn't elect this government in
Alan
Thursday Jul 21, 00:24
I didn't vote for the Tories!
Dave Wilson
Thursday Jul 21, 14:48
So Alan, "we elect people to run the country for us; they implement what they believe to be the most effective policy." How did you feel about the Tory Poll Tax? You didn't vote for them, were you okay about the tax? I didn't vote for Labour this time round, and I am so not happy with some of the policies!
On a sperate note; what do all forum users think of "proportional representation"?
Alan
Thursday Jul 21, 16:46
Another point Dave, in relation to your comments about protesting outside parliament.
I was at parliament yesterday and there were three different groups protesting peacefully outside all the main entrances. No one was making any attempt to remove them.
How then has protesting outside parliament been banned as you have suggested?
Dave Wilson
Thursday Jul 21, 17:19
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4096194.stm
Alan I noticed you failed to answer my questions in my last post.
However I am happy to answer yours.
Obviously, the police or the powers that be, have turned a blind eye to the protests that you witnessed. Please see the link above!
Dave Wilson
Thursday Jul 21, 17:19
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4096194.stm
Alan I noticed you failed to answer my questions in my last post.
However I am happy to answer yours.
Obviously, the police or the powers that be, have turned a blind eye to the protests that you witnessed. Please see the link above!
Dave Wilson
Thursday Jul 21, 17:29
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4696875.stm
Also Alan, did you see in the news the body count in Iraq? I believe you quoted figures before. But the widely excepted view is now 25,000. At this rate the Iraq war will have killed the same amount of people that Saddam killed (290,000) in roughly the same amount of time that you quoted. So the justifaction still is meaningless.
Alan
Thursday Jul 21, 20:35
You are using predictions Dave, not facts... ever thought of becoming a politician?
peter h
Thursday Jul 21, 23:02
Dave,
Don't forget the insurgents. Theyre killing 800 iraqis a month now.
The Americans and the suicide bombers are more efficient than Saddam ever was. What would they do without each other?
Oh, and don't forget the 500,000 children who died for lack of food and medicine during sanctions. The ones that Madeleine Albright referred to as "a price worth paying" (after all, they were only Arabs. Not as important as Westerners , eh Alan?).
So, Alan, Dave doesn't need to make predictions. The numbers are already there.
Alan, in your earlier texts you referred to the link between Iraq and Al Qaeda. Well, even if we didn't have one before, we've certainly got one now. Thanks George, thanks Tony.
Maybe I'm naive , but I always assumed a war on terror meant wiping it out, not increasing it.
Alan
Friday Jul 22, 02:04
Peter, I do not see the life of an Arab as any less important than that of a Westerner and I resent your insinuation. We may disagree on a lot of things but don't assume that I view the death/ murder of any one person different from another purely because of race.
Dave Wilson
Friday Jul 22, 03:28
Likewise Alan, since you avoid answering questions - you too would make a good politican!
peter h
Friday Jul 22, 03:44
Alan
Dave has been pointing out very clearly to you the death toll in Iraq and you just sidestep it andcome in with some smartass comment.
peter h
Friday Jul 22, 03:44
Alan
Dave has been pointing out very clearly to you the death toll in Iraq and you just sidestep it andcome in with some smartass comment.
peter h
Friday Jul 22, 03:51
sorry, to finish the point. Dave points out 25000 deaths of innocent civilians in Iraq and you just treat it like a cheap debating point. It isn't. It's 25000 innocent people. 10 times that many bereaved relatives. All done on a pack of lies by your leader in our name , and every time you ever mention it you talk in nice clipped objective terms of somebody who certainly does NOT treat those lives as being as important and as sacred as any other life. And if you resent that, then tough. Because it's written loud and clear in the comments you make.
Murder is murder, whether it's allied troopps on the rampage in falluja or some moron on the london underground with a bag full of fertliser and a detonator.
Alan
Friday Jul 22, 12:14
So because I present Dave with different figures which are not as high as his you are suggesting that i treat it as a cheap debating point. Just becasue I am not stating what you want to or think you should hear Peter it is no excuse to throw down the racist card.
I have previously posted several figures on deaths casualties etc and have named the source. At that time it was asked of me to produce these figures. I am not treating it as a cheap debating point and if you had bothered to read my previous posts on the subject then you would see that this is the case.
peter h
Friday Jul 22, 12:48
I have read your previous postings. That is why I said it. THese things are n't just facts. THeyre shattered human lives.
Dave Wilson
Friday Jul 22, 14:33
The question that was unanswered by Alan that I was refering to was
"So Alan, "we elect people to run the country for us; they implement what they believe to be the most effective policy." How did you feel about the Tory Poll Tax? You didn't vote for them, were you okay about the tax? I didn't vote for Labour this time round, and I am so not happy with some of the policies!
On a sperate note; what do all forum users think of "proportional representation"?"
Norman Watts
Friday Jul 22, 15:32
Do you guys ever stick to the original topic of the thread?
Can't you just agree to meet up for tea and scones and leave the rest of us to deal with the material issue - ie. Leech's abhorrent rumour-spreading about The Christie.
Will Leech/LD sympathisers ever come out with a credible tale as to why they spread the myth that the Christie was under threat?
Until he does, he's wide open to the charge that the campaign was a cynical ploy to win votes.
I don't want an MP that puts self-pursuit first and will make sure he and his sycophants remember that for the next 3-4 years.
Dave Wilson
Friday Jul 22, 16:10
Hi Norman
Thanks for your contribution. You are right, we do go off on a tangent on a regular basis, but if you read this debate correctly, it was Len who went off track this time, and I am led to believe that he is not too keen on John Leech and the lib dems. I am not particularly a John Leech sympathiser, however I keep a close eye on this site to try and make sure that it remains fairly balanced. How boring would this site be, if it was just full of people moaning about John Leech/Lib Dems and not balanced with the likes of me, moaning about the Tory and Labour parties/MP's/Policies?
As for the myth of Christies closing - I don't care to be honest. Some Lib Dem/JL supporters can fight that fight. Hosptial closures came way down on the list of priorities for me when it came to who was or wasn't going to get my vote!
Dave Wilson
Friday Jul 22, 17:55
I loved that word by the way - sycophat! i had to look it up! I know Norman won't be happy with me going off on another tangent, but I just wanted to thank him for the word! Knowledge is power, and now I have a new word to use!
Norman can you recommend a good place that makes good scones? I like Betty's in York, but I was wanting somewhere a little closer?
Dave Wilson
Friday Jul 22, 18:07
that was a typo error! sycohat=sychphant
Dave Wilson
Friday Jul 22, 21:06
Been a long week! Spelling cells in my brain have melted
Dave Wilson
Friday Jul 22, 21:10
By the way, good luck with your A-level results Thomas, I forget to wish you all the best! Are you hoping to go to university afterwards? I hope you will still manage to find time to continue this site!!
peter h
Saturday Jul 23, 00:13
Hallo Norman
I have yet to see a John Leech supporter, let alone sycophant, contribute to this website.
THe other comments may well be inconvenient and embarrassing to Labour supports, but they relate directly to the topic since they all deal with why voters deserted Labour at the last election.
35% the electorate voted Labour; around 43% of the votes cast were for Labour; in England Labour does not even have a majority of MPs.
If we had PR it would not be in power.
In short we do not have a democratic government.
People do not trust Labour with NHS any more than with anything else.
That includes the voters of withington and, apparently, many of the Doctors at Cristies who appear to be, or have been, nervous of Labour's intentions in its reviews.
After the debacle of Withington Hospital, it is scarcely surprising.
From where I stand, as somebody committed to no individual party, it strikes me that this fixation with some rumour about Chrisities is a despairing clutching at straws by the local Labour party unwilling to face up to the reality of why it lost this seat. If Labour wants to regain ground round here, it should grow up and move on
peter h
Saturday Jul 23, 04:07
perhaps somebody can explain why BBC news tonight reported that the threat to Christie hospital - in the shape of key services being moved elsewhere - has been lifted, if there was no threat in the first place as Alan etc maintain? Is the BBC lying?
And why is there a statement in Reporter this week from Christies referring to worries amongst doctors - and statements or petitions being drawn up by 60 of them - that Christies was under threat? Is Christies also lying?
Or was there substance to John Leech's campaign?
Alan
Saturday Jul 23, 04:39
http://www.politicswatch.org.uk
Peter, look at my website, you'll find my answer!
Alan
Saturday Jul 23, 04:42
Furthermore Peter, tell me, after reading the statement that the doctors signed, is there any mention of a threat to Christie Hospital closing as advocated by John Leech and backed up by the petition he has recently presented to the SHA?
peter h
Saturday Jul 23, 12:49
I thought this was your website.....
Maybe I'm thick, but, as a totally non-politically-aligned person with no axe to grind for or against any party, when I read the Christie statement in the Reporter, and when I listen to what the BBC says, I get the very clear impression that the authorities were planning to cut back at Christies, but that the pressure of publicity stopped them, pressure from the Doctors which was amplified by John Leech's intervention, pressure which worked because it was applied at the right moment and a panicky Labour administration backtracked rapidly to try and save its neck at election time, but failed.
I may be wrong, but that is the way it reads looking at the Chrisite statement and BBC.
And frankly, after the experience of Withington Hospital locally, and Iraq nationally, not to mention the disgraceful sight of Tony Blair this week desperately trying to say black is white by denying any connection between London bombings and Iraq, then I know which I am going to believe if I have to choose between Labour party statements and the BBC/Christies statements.
Sounds to me like the staff and patients of Christies owe John Leech a vote of thanks, not a brickbat, because he forced the authorities to scrap a hidden agenda.
Alan
Saturday Jul 23, 22:15
http://www.politicswatch.org.uk
Thanks for what? Leading a bogus campaign, causing confusion and fear over the future of Christie. There was never any threat to Christie and you know it Peter! So does everyone else. The statement mentions nothing about closure. It was simply a group of doctors who got together and made it clear that IF cancer services were re located then they would be unable to continue with their job efectively. Why does that represent a threat of closure? Why does it suggest that the review will dislocate services? The answer is, quite clearly, it doesn't. This whole issue was blown out of proportion by the MEN and JL jumped on the bandwagon for electoral purposes, nothing more. It was a disgrace!!!
Are the Al-Qaida/ terror attack n New York or the attacks on Westerners in East Timor related to Iraq. No, they are not and neither is London. It is down to religious fundamentalism and a sick perversion of the religion of Islam. They haven't done this because of Iraq, the have done this because they have been brainwashed by fundamentalist groups who have been bombing and terrorising Westerners for decades!
Alan
Saturday Jul 23, 22:17
Also, to clarify, I don't own this site; it belongs to Tom Graham as reported in the MEN and South Manchester Reporter on several occasions.
peter h
Saturday Jul 23, 23:13
If you paid attention to the whole picture instead of just cherry picking the bits that suit you, you would know that the Al Qaeda attack on New York was DIRECTLY traceable back to Iraq.
To be specific, Osama Bin Laden declared war on USA because USA stationed troops in Saudi Arabia. Those troops were stationed in Saudi Arabia as part of the first Iraqi war when Sadam invaded Kuwait. And then stayed there.
That is what started the whole damned thing.
The stated aim of Al Qaida has always been to kick USA out of the Arab holy land. Try reading what Bin Laden says for once instead if what the spin doctors feed you.
They spread it to include US interests elsewhere in the Muslim world and it caught the muslim zeitgeist because of Islamic anger about US policies towards Islam in general.
That is historical fact.
As for being a sick perversion of Islam, how do you know? Are you muslim? Have you read the Q'ran? I doubt it.
The invasuion of Iraq has enraged Muslim public opinion worlwide and vastly increased Al Qaida's influence. Just listen to every Muslim kid you hear interviewed on TV for Gods sake, or read what every Muslim representative says in the papers.
peter h
Saturday Jul 23, 23:21
So these Christies doctors just thought they'd make a statement about IF something happened? Oh really? Why? Were they bored? Finished the crossword and needed something to occupy themselves with?
They were worried that they would no longer be able to do their job properly because Christies was going to be carved up, but it's all right because that does not mean "closure".
Just like you didnt "close" withington hospital. You just opened up a glorified outpatients and flogged the land off to Countryside properties for flats.
So, BBC, MEN, Reporter, the CHristies Doctors, John Leech, all got it wrong. Yeah, sure.
Alan
Sunday Jul 24, 19:42
Yes Peter, they did get it wrong! It would seem that you rely too much on what you read in the papers and see on TV.. in both cases.
Tim
Sunday Jul 24, 23:04
I want to know why Keith Bradley did nothing, when the doctors needed his backing in public to protect Christies. Even if you buy the 'its all alright now they have the Critical Care Unit' (which I don't) he didn't say anything about it being put on ice during the election. (It was only approved after the election).
peter h
Monday Jul 25, 04:28
Well well Alan. That needs framing.
You are saying the BBC, MEN, Reporter, Christies' Doctors and John Leech ALL got it wrong.
And of course all the people who votes for John Leech got it wrong too.
Just for once I'm speechless.
Have you ever considered a career on the stage? This is priceless.
Dominic Hardwick
Monday Jul 25, 05:29
'Yes Peter, they did get it wrong! It would seem that you rely too much on what you read in the papers and see on TV.. in both cases.'
From what I've read Alan, it would seem that you rely too much on what the Labour party spin doctors feed you.
Alan
Monday Jul 25, 13:38
Tim, that's because it wasn't an election issue and I imagine that Keith knew already that there was no threat. Being on the Health Select Committee; being very much involved in Cancer UK and being in constant contact with Christie and the SHA on the matter. Keith didn't want to use cancer patients for political purposes... something it would seem JL was very willing to do!!
Dave Wilson
Monday Jul 25, 18:09
http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/men/news/health/s/166/166830_christie_future_is_safe.html
Looks like the Christie Hospital is not under threat.
Dave Wilson
Monday Jul 25, 18:26
Now that we all know the Christie hospital is safe, can we start looking into some other area of work that John Leech is involved in?
Alan
Monday Jul 25, 18:41
There is always Metro Link Dave?
Dave Wilson
Monday Jul 25, 18:49
Cool! I am happy to chat about the Metro Link. But where do we start?
Dave Wilson
Monday Jul 25, 19:02
http://www.transport2000.org.uk/library/RoadstoRuin/section_01.htm
How about starting with, how I am looking forward to it's arrival in the South Manchester area, when the Labour government start to invest in sustainable transport.
John 2
Monday Jul 25, 20:14
This morning I took the opportunity to have a chat with someone I know who works at Christies. I indicated that there seemed a lot of politics surrounding it. My contact agreed, but was not referring to party politics! Apparently there is much internal speculation about the future of the hospital. Also, money is very tight (no surprises there). The view of this person is that the Christie will at some time have to merge with another hospital in the area, and will concentrate on tertiary care. Only one person's view of course, but this conversation was a useful corrective to the Labour Party propaganda which seems to have convinced some that it is all a figment of John Leech's imagination.
Dave Wilson
Monday Jul 25, 21:23
John 2 Well whether it will close/merge in the future is a topic for a future debate, for now it seems, Christie Hospital is safe.
peter h
Monday Jul 25, 22:06
As a starting point for Dave, how about having metro link run down wilmslow road to give a link to Christies?
And how about bike lanes?
2% of journeys are done on bikes in this country, as opposed to 28% in holland. Bikes plus decent trams could carve a big hole in congestion rates.
Dominic Hardwick
Monday Jul 25, 22:11
Perhaps we could turn Wilmslow Road into a bike lane
Tim
Monday Jul 25, 22:42
Given the letter from Christies in the South Manchester Reporter which states that the petition existed, isn't it time to correct the relevant thread and offer a public apology?
Alan
Monday Jul 25, 22:42
Bike lanes are a good idea, I do alot of cycling, however I have to say that the bike lanes that are being introduced around the country are more of a death trap than anything else. i.e far too narrow and they seem to run for a couple of miles and then suddenly stop?
As much as I enjoy cycling however I don't like the idea of cycling to work in the morning with a suit, in the pouring rain, it isn't really that practical. Certainly not my idea of a good start to the working day?
Alan
Tuesday Jul 26, 00:28
Hello Tim, I don't believe so! The "petition" was in fact a statement signed by around 60 doctors. At no point does this statement suggest that Christie is going to close so no apology necessary. If anyone should be apologising it should be John!
Alan
Tuesday Jul 26, 00:33
I'm not sure if you have seen the statement Tim but you can view it in full through this link:
http://politicswatch.org.uk/35.html
peter h
Tuesday Jul 26, 04:37
alan, those arent bike lanes. Theyre the council paying lipservice to government regulations by doing the minimum they can get away with. They are an insult to ratepayers and utterly useless.
A bike lane is physically separated from road by a kerb or similar, and can't be driven or parked on.
As for cycling in the rain, get waterproofs. I'm biased because I make them for brands in China. They work.
So get riding. It's good for your health, saves you money, good for the environment, prevents congestion, and , most important, it's fun.
And as an added bonus, that moron Andrew Grimes will hate your guts.
AND, it's safe.
peter h
Tuesday Jul 26, 04:44
trying to pretend that a statement signed by 60 doctors is not a petition is just playing with words Alan.
Personally, I think that if 60 doctors were that worried , then something MUST have been going on , despite the denials in Authority. These are top guys actually working in the hospital. They are bound to know what was in the air.
If you paid attention to the local candidtates in the election, you must surely have heard the very coherent arguments by that independent Doctor who stood? He was there to protest on behalf of doctors nationally about a creeping dismantling of NHS buy this government. Basically , a lot of doctors no longer trust the government.
Tim
Tuesday Jul 26, 05:25
Alan,
What is a petition if it is not a statement signed by people?
Alan
Tuesday Jul 26, 13:38
Peter, re:cycling, running 10k a day and spending 2 hours a night at the gym keeps me fit!
peter h
Tuesday Jul 26, 18:51
you're either arnold scwarzenegger or exaggerating. Careful of impact injjuries. cycling avoids them.
and you can be a gang member and ride around without lights and shoot anybody who complains
Tom
Thursday Aug 04, 00:27
So we have an insider at the hospital saying there are threats of cutbacks, doctors concerned at what will happen, reports on the BBC and in the press. And John Leech should not make it an election issue?
OK, he may have gone overboard on it, but there is clearly some concern about the hospital and the number of services it will offer in the future.
Have you noticed that this site has turned into a place for Labour and Lib Dem members to argue, and there are very few people who are not partisan, let alone people going 'oh my god I voted for that liar John Leech- I am so sorry I was taken in'- as I am sure this site was set up for.
peter h
Thursday Aug 04, 02:57
Actually Tom you're only half right. It's Labour members arguing against people who didn't vote labour. I doubt if any of them were Lib Dems. Just people refusing to accept the vitriolic nonsense pumped out by Labour against John Leech just because he annihilated them in the election.
Alan
Friday Aug 05, 23:52
I wouldn't call 600 or so votes annihilation??
peter h
Saturday Aug 06, 01:54
Get real Alan. You had the biggest anti-labour swing in England in this constituency. That was annihilation.
You'll never regain that ground till you do get real about what happened here, and incoherent twaddle that appears in the Reporter letter pages (I don't mean Zoe's letter) do your cause nothing but harm. To outsiders, floating voters, it just seems like infantile , snide sour grapes. And people like Chris Paul, whoever he is, unwittingly insults the intelligence of all the people who vote Lib Dem with such garbage.
As a means of winning them back, that is about as counter-productive as you can possibly get.
I find it sad. It reduces political debate to tweedledum vs tweedledee.
peter h
Sunday Aug 07, 06:06
And today you lost the only cabinet minister with the moral courage to stand up to have stood up to blair and to have attempted to add a moral dimension to the foreign office, and to have resigned rather than enter an illegal war.
Dave Wilson
Monday Aug 08, 20:20
It was indeed very sad news over the weekend Peter. I couldn't agree more. Not very many MP's left that are like Robin Cook.
peter h
Tuesday Aug 09, 04:04
funny how the lads have gone silent..........
Steve J
Wednesday Aug 10, 04:17
They seem to have added a Voting Record thing on this site... can someone explain why my liberal democrat is 73% tory? I don't understand it
peter h
Wednesday Aug 10, 11:41
it's votes against the government, not for the tories
ph
Tuesday Aug 30, 23:46
thank you for those kind words, matty.
I havent gone. I'm just not prepared to "debate" with people who try to censor what their opponents say, people who are happy to insult and arguably libel my MP in print but who complain if anybody is less than polite to them in return. They are not worth arguing with.
If you could ever be bothered to look back on the history of this website, you will see a few people, notably Dave Wilson, and hopefully myself, made large numbers of very specific points which the labour party supporters never attempted to address. So there was very little "debate" any way. Just a lot of not very intelligent party line cliches.
You mention Iraq. Just look at their silence on it. Dave and others have thrown endless points about Iraq at them, and they have ignored almost all of them, choosing instead to pursue a childish and ultimately disproved argument about Christies, resorting to endlessly splitting hairs over the precise meaning of words like "closure" in a desperate attempt to avoid the overall spirit of the situation , which arose from the fact nobody locally will trust labour when it comes to closing hospitals.
So I backec out. They will ignore 500 words about Iraq, but whinge about the use of a word like "moron". They don't have the wit to defend their corner - with the intermittent exception of Alan . As for the one going to work at Portin Down, well, sorry, but in my youth weu se to try and close that place down. It's the UK centre for research on chemical and biological warfare and is a scar on the face of britain
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